Holidays and in laws!

[outofcontrol2014]

My MIL is being very clingy these days. Completely understandable because she lost GFIL at the start of the year, after a long illness. DH and I are trying to be supportive, speaking regularly on the phone, sending gifts, seeing her and FIL as often as we can (they live a 5 hour drive away, which means this has to be for a weekend, which we manage 4-5 times a year).

MIL and FIL have recently started to press extremely hard for a family holiday away. However, while I am comfortable to go for a weekend, I know that I cannot emotionally or practically be there for a whole week.

There are several aspects to this. Firstly, DH has a very responsible job and is often able to take less than 10 days' holiday a year. (Yes, he has a statutory entitlement to more, but feels that he has to be present more often to keep on top of things and look after the people he looks after). If we spent a week with PIL, it would be literally almost all of that time used up. We barely get time to ourselves! Selfishly, I would like us to be able to take a holiday alone.

Secondly, I am quite a private person, but PIL insist that the entire day from 9am to 11pm has to be filled with Activities, and all of those Activities have to be done as a group - meaning that there is literally no time for people to do their own thing. If you opt out, there is sulking! You even have to go together in the same car, which means there can be no escape. For someone as pathetically introverted as me, I find this a real challenge!

Thirdly, PIL are extremely loud and they talk without stopping from one end of the day to the next. If there is no-one in the room, they will talk to themselves. Naturally with so much talking there is very little space for them to listen to anyone else. I have health problems and sometimes I can't do the activities they want to do - and however clearly I try to express this (and I have been quite blunt about it) they simply bulldoze me and go ahead anyway. I find this very difficult to deal with, particularly as it often leads to embarrassment/pain or anxiety about embarrassment/pain on my part!

WIBU to say no to the whole week, but yes to a weekend as part of it? How should I go about dealing with this. I can't emphasize enough that PIL mean well and have had a rough time lately, but are just very used to having their own way.

Agree with just booking your own holiday

I think you need to stop offering excuses or explanations and just say no. It is hard as we are programmed to make excuses, but you have done that and it hasn't gotten you anywhere. You can flower it up a bit- sorry, but the answer is no, please stop asking as it is upsetting us- but don't add excuses!

Pick dates you can do 3-4 days and stick to them - broken record back but start a debate about where to go as a distraction.

We can only do X to y - now here a few ideas about where.

My FIL is a bully - lovely guy and great when boundaries in place but does bull doze and it is aimed more at family. We had a few horrible years when they refused to see us as adults with other commitments - worst when DC were young and when IL social lives were very quiet - thankfully that changed for the better now.

I'd keep any holiday plans you have for yourselves to yourselves.

We got our first family holiday to ourselves - we waited years to have it - then when DH let slip we'd booked for next year at same time found that they were at same resort same time few months before going. Then we had years of that and it being an expectation. We made it work and it wasn't as bad as it could of been.

We are finally going somewhere else so hopefully we'll get a holiday by ourselves next year - I spent nearly 12 months trail blazing that idea - setting expectations . IL wanted to do everything last holiday - even DC had enough and wanted to chill - we all came back exhausted.

Slight side point, but has it occurred to you that if you DO get them to accept 4 nights, you'll end up with them bulldozing it into being there first thing on Day 1, staying four nights and leaving a midnight on Day 5 (checking out at say 10am then booking a full day's activities and evening meal in the locale, for example)? Not actually very far off from a week!

Start thinking ahead and next time you speak, tell them you've looked at holiday and after the week you have DECIDED to spend just the two of you, you can do 2-3 nights with them. I suggest two.

In the nicest possible way, what you describe your DH suffering at their hands is horrendous, and given your background, your minimising of it ('oh they mean well') is a textbook way of dealing with it.

Honestly, if you want your DH to stay happy and, crucially, HEALTHY - start staying away from them.

Some of you are far too polite, with very horrible controlling relatives.
I go for occasional holidays with relatives, more asking my dad along now my mum is dead although we spent a few days with the inlaws in the summer. I would have words if any of them invited themselves along or tried telling me how I spent my holiday time.

Some of you are far too polite, with very horrible controlling relatives.

"No, I don't want to do that, so I won't".

End of.

It's not hard. The rest of it is just people making rods for their own backs.

Honestly, I think you really need to let go of the fear of saying 'No' to them, OP (and I know that's easy to say). The consequences of saying yes are actually worse than the consequences of saying no, meaning it and sticking to it.

I have a mother who is lovely, and even more lovely if you set strict boundaries with her, much as she dislikes the process of those boundaries being put in place. I had to fight to get her to accept that she and my father could not turn up to stay at my house without asking me in advance (and doing it while already on the motorway did not count), and that actually, wanting to know when and for how long and what social events she was planning at my house when she got there didn't mean I didn't love her.

Boy did she resist. But I had got to the stage where the intrusion into my life was such that I was considering hardly seeing her at all. After fighting a few battles like that, and it was horrible while it was going on, she accepted me as an autonomous adult (mostly) and we get on miles better. I really love her, I'm just not prepared to subsume my entire life to her emotional needs.

Now to get her to stop nagging me to take the children to the doctors/make various complaints to their schools, nurseries etc, cut off other parents or whatever minor childhood event she is obsessing about now and convinced will not get dealt with unless she micro-manages it...

These things are cumulative, you see. If I hadn't won my earlier battles my mother would be even more smothering about the latest flashpoints. Similarly with you, I think you need to win a couple of battles (like holiday time) in order to get your PIL accustomed to the fact they don't actually own the very bones of you, and you can disagree and do different things while still having an ok relationship with them.

Good post Abbie

Please just do the broken record on 3/4 nights
(as Castlemilk said, I think they'll bulldoze you into nearly a week!)

FWIW I have been on two 4 night breaks this year with my (adult) DS, DD, SIL and 2DGD.
It was really lovely, we had a great time but I made sure I got a lot of time to myself because it was hectic!
The difference is, they understand I need that time, and we all did really.
We all helped each other out to have as good a holiday as possible!

'It's not hard'

It actually is for some people. Extremely hard. If you're a nice, thoughtful, pleasant sort of person who tries to be considerate of others and doesn't ride roughshod over others to get what you want, then being faced with this sort of behaviour is pretty shocking. It can take practice and a lot of guts to be able to say 'no' to people, especially family members.

Having said that OP, I do think that is exactly what you should do! Your ILs sound like pure hell, they obviously upset your DP and stress him out terribly.This is not normal and not ok. I wouldn't be so sure that any of this is 'meant well' as you say. I don't think its meant to do anything other than get them exactly what they want, and to hell with everyone else. You don't have to stand for it. These are not reasonable people you are dealing with here. You coped well with your MIL's phonecall but she obviously wasn't prepared to hear you. I don't think you have any choice but to get tougher and clearer and you have had good suggestions about how to do that. Good luck.

4 nights is too long to offer-they will nudge it up to a week and all the angst will have been for nothing. Say 2 nights.

Abbie right you need to win a few battles and put boundaries in place.

I did find saying no hard.

Like OP my DH forgets previous experiences and wants to give in and work round many times. I to have a difficult people in my family I am accustomed to working round.

Having said that I have on numerous occasions said no on other issues sometimes with support sometimes without DH support.

I got out manoeuvred on the holiday front.

First time bad stressful time for us - we were limited location wise and time off was set and we'd paid for everything - before we knew they'd be there same time. They told the DC first selling it to them as a wonderful thing. They paid for it all and booked their time of work.

I was left in the position of fighting them with upset and tantrums, coming under pressure from DH after his initial shock to work round it and being the bad guys to the DC.

When we were on holiday MIL was selling idea to DC that they'd be there for next and DH and I did what we are programmed to do and found ways to cope. Everything would get booked up before we left for next year - giving us discounts we were loathed to miss but making it easy for IL to tag along.

It's taken years and walking away form that location and working on everyone expectations to get back to going by ourselves. I think DH also realised that everyone us and DC was making the best of it rather than enjoying the frantic running round with IL.

I hear you all on the nights thing. That hadn't even occurred to me! I will be careful!

As Lotta says, I find it extremely hard to say no forcefully to people. I think I am getting too much credit for it as a nice person, though!! I come from a family which is unhealthily hypersensitive - far too much so - every word is pored over, and massive conclusions are drawn from the slightest thing. It made me very paranoid when I was in my early 20s and I had to get counselling to get over it a bit! I still have little practice at drawing boundaries, and I am frankly not good at it. I realise fully that this is my issue and not my MILs, and I am trying to work on it.

I very much appreciate every bit of advice here, because it is helping me to be more self-reflective and to have courage to stand up. I do think that Abbie's point is critical: I need to see the setting of limits as something that will actually IMPROVE the relationship in the long run, instead of something that may destroy it. DH needs to work on this with me, as he is very much the same with them - probably one reason why we get along!

Obviously, his reaction to them is part of the reason I am worried about doing this firmly but nicely. I am not sure how best to support him. It is awful to see him getting ill around them. A couple of years back we went out to a restaurant with them, and it was quite hot and very echoey which made his mother's voice boom around even more. His Dad was chuntering incessantly and it just felt like we were sitting in a pressure cooker. He went livid white and had to go outside, where he was repeatedly sick in the gutter. PIL just pretended nothing had happened, while I ran between them indoors and him outside. This is a guy who can stand up in front of a room of strangers and give a long speech, yet his own parents are so stressful for him that he is unwell around them. :(

Loopylou, You know that you will have to tell MIL at some point that you will probably not be going to Florida, because you don't have others decide what your family are going to do without consulting you. Although it sounds as though DH was just saying 'that's nice' to be polite and he may know you don't want to go. Then he still comes out of it well when you refuse to go, and he says to MIL 'sorry, Loopylou won't go, I can't make her change her mind'. It seems a rather hollow gesture if she wants DH and the DGCS to come on holiday and only invites you because she has to.

I would have this conversation with her and not via DH, and certainly before she gets the DC all excited about something that won't go ahead. You don't want her to book it and then insist you pay if she can't get her deposit back.

Would it be any better if you were in a hotel rather than a villa? Not in each others pockets so much?

Brujo - that sounds like a total nightmare, and just horrible that you had to be the 'bad guys' to the DC. I am quite shocked how many people have said here that they got 'tricked' into a family holiday. I would be very upset to turn up somewhere for a family break and find the in laws were accidentally on purpose there too!

I hear you on how hard it is to walk away from the arrangements. One thing that alarmed me last night was MIL saying 'This year- and every year - we need a week!'

lou- "I think the conversation went something on the lines of: ''have you and loopylou thought about a beach wedding? Because I want to take us all to Florida next year and I thought a beach wedding would be nice''
We had already booked our wedding for this year at the time so not only was she planning our 2015 holiday but she was suggesting we change our wedding plans."

Oh my goodness, that is really intrusive!

I am genuinely shocked. Is your DH going to be able to deal with this, because it sounds like you need support!

OP with your latest update, the relationship between your DH and his DPs seems quite unhinged. Any normal person, on seeing that the person they are out with is unwell, would want to support them and would perhaps suggest going home, and the fact that you were trying to give them the appearance of normality whilst looking after your DH shows that you don't have an altogether healthy relationship with them either.

Based on that, and the fact they are pushing for every year, then I would just say no altogether, or as others have suggested go for minimal time, preferably in separate accomodation.

I feel your pain OP. My mil is always pushing us to go away together. My youngest child is autistic and she really doesn't understand the implications of this. Some times we don't get sleep, have to bed hop middle of night and meticulously plan everything, abandon plans if it gets too much etc. he's noisy too when stressed, I think fil would struggle big time. My DH keeps get at bay but I wonder if she thinks it's just him who doesn't want to! Frany I don't need the stress and next time she starts up I'm going to tell her to lay off. It puts a strain on us dealing with the guilt. Yes she might not be around in a few years but any of us might not be!

Your DH has to step up too.

When we did holiday with my PIL my DH actually found it harder than me (the relationship wasn't great) and I told him unless he started being an adult with them and managed the situation with me rather than withdraw, I would go home.

It must be awful for him but he and you have to be a team, not leave it to one of you. And keep it casual. However big it is in your heads, to PIL it must be firm but casual (in the sense of 'no big deal, but of course we're not doing it, however emotional you get, bovvered').

If your PIL are an Unstoppable Force you and DH just have to become the Immovable Object.

rookie - It is like they wilfully refuse to see anything that doesn't fit their view of how things ought to be. If someone is in pain and it is inconvenient, they will just ignore it and act like nothing is happening. It is like a policy of enforced optimism at all times!

It is partly a complete inability to deal with people emotionally. I mean, if someone were being sick near me, or crying near me, even if I didn't know them I would feel obliged to go and ask if they were OK and if they needed help. They will just blithely ignore any emotion and continue with whatever they are doing.

Partly, they are just terrible with emotions and don't know how to deal with them, so it is easier to do this Victorian thing of ignoring them. But also I honestly don't think they can imagine a world with other people in it who have different desires and wishes and feelings. It is like otherness doesn't exist to them, or if it does only as an outside threat. I think there is some delusion in there too that they can make the world they want by force of will.

The strange thing is, I say that and they sound like monsters but they aren't. They really aren't. They can be very generous and sweet in other ways and would be, I think, mortified to hear that they were causing offense or being insensitive or difficult. My fear is that they are so impervious to hints and to nuance that the only way of dealing with them may be a head-on collision which will hurt them.

I couldn't face all the pressure against saying no the first time the result was we went and they were there and then ended up going on family holidays for 5 years .

I stood firm one year on Christmas - always have TBH - but one year pressure was huge to soften the blow and to appease DH suggested another holiday time for visit what I thought was for one year. Suddenly its expected every year even when it's been really inconvenient. DH worries if we stop it then the vague pressure about Christmas will pick up to extreme levels again. I've pointed out saying no is the answer to Christmas pressure.

Learn from my mistakes - don't cave as it it sets you up for repeats - and don't offer compromises without very clear understanding about their nature and understanding original pressure won't IME completely go anyway.

If your PIL are an Unstoppable Force you and DH just have to become the Immovable Object.

^^ THIS sound like a good idea.

Is it inability, or the ease of long practice?

Don't be too ready to say 'they can't'. It is more likely true to say 'They're not great at it, so they don't bother'. Which is quite different.

And honestly, why is it so bad if they are hurt? Everyone is hurt occasionally, that's life. They hurt you all the time, but you and your DH are still there for them. They will survive a few disappointments over recreational arrangements.

Abbie - you are so wise! Of course, you're right. I have to stop treating them like they are made of eggshell. Otherwise I'm not giving them a chance to change, am I?

Brujo - I'm so sorry you've had to go through all that. It sounds as though your DH is even worse at saying no as mine!! :(

We also have a routine for visits - they have to happen 4/5 times a year at roughly set intervals. I don't mind that so much, though I have been known to moan as one swims onto the horizon

'The strange thing is, I say that and they sound like monsters but they aren't. They really aren't. They can be very generous and sweet '

They sound a lot like my parents. Detaching from my parents has led me to alcohol problems, severe depression and almost into self-harm. I wouldn't have got through it without psychotherapy and the support of my partner.

OP, I know that this sort of behaviour is extremely confusing but you honestly need to stop minimising what they do and they effect it has on your DP. Abusive people usually aren't 'monsters' or horrible all the time - its part of what makes them so difficult to deal with . If someone was just vile to you all the time, it would be much easier to deal with - you would just make sure you stayed far away from them. Your DP's parents sound like narcissists. You cannot have a relationship with a narcissist - absolutely everything has to be on their terms and they don't give a fig about anyone else.

It is like they wilfully refuse to see anything that doesn't fit their view of how things ought to be

Sound very like my FIL.

Rest of his family tend to melt away rather than argue - as he doesn't listen.

Though to be fair FIL wouldn't have ignore someone being ill in public - though we did end up having them visit when D & V bugs were in house despite all mine and DH objections though they finally learnt that wasn't a good idea when I carried on as usual looking after DC and not visitors including not proving food and they got sick afterwards.

Once witnessed DH after marriage - have a prolonged conversation where FIL insisted he was coming up one weekend and DH explaining again and again that we were out the country and wouldn't be there. He gave up in the end FIL never said if he visited - I got the impression we were expected to cancel.

Good thing after DC I was much better at enforcing boundaries - and it helped immensely - despite the holiday thing.