Holidays and in laws!

[outofcontrol2014]

My MIL is being very clingy these days. Completely understandable because she lost GFIL at the start of the year, after a long illness. DH and I are trying to be supportive, speaking regularly on the phone, sending gifts, seeing her and FIL as often as we can (they live a 5 hour drive away, which means this has to be for a weekend, which we manage 4-5 times a year).

MIL and FIL have recently started to press extremely hard for a family holiday away. However, while I am comfortable to go for a weekend, I know that I cannot emotionally or practically be there for a whole week.

There are several aspects to this. Firstly, DH has a very responsible job and is often able to take less than 10 days' holiday a year. (Yes, he has a statutory entitlement to more, but feels that he has to be present more often to keep on top of things and look after the people he looks after). If we spent a week with PIL, it would be literally almost all of that time used up. We barely get time to ourselves! Selfishly, I would like us to be able to take a holiday alone.

Secondly, I am quite a private person, but PIL insist that the entire day from 9am to 11pm has to be filled with Activities, and all of those Activities have to be done as a group - meaning that there is literally no time for people to do their own thing. If you opt out, there is sulking! You even have to go together in the same car, which means there can be no escape. For someone as pathetically introverted as me, I find this a real challenge!

Thirdly, PIL are extremely loud and they talk without stopping from one end of the day to the next. If there is no-one in the room, they will talk to themselves. Naturally with so much talking there is very little space for them to listen to anyone else. I have health problems and sometimes I can't do the activities they want to do - and however clearly I try to express this (and I have been quite blunt about it) they simply bulldoze me and go ahead anyway. I find this very difficult to deal with, particularly as it often leads to embarrassment/pain or anxiety about embarrassment/pain on my part!

WIBU to say no to the whole week, but yes to a weekend as part of it? How should I go about dealing with this. I can't emphasize enough that PIL mean well and have had a rough time lately, but are just very used to having their own way.

I hear you all on the holiday thing. Sat DH down last night and we had a chat. A combination of circumstances outside of his control have meant that he has been working these hours over the last 18 months to two years. Without saying too much (don't want to out myself), those circumstances have to do with a sad run of serious illness and death amongst the staff where he works, and having to take over responsibilities due to other people having important commitments elsewhere that simply couldn't be shelved. We have very much discussed and agreed that the right thing for him to do was to provide this additional support at this time, so I don't have any problem with the decision at all, and was very much a party to it. BUT it does need to stop now that things are straightening out, and we have both agreed that it would be nice to take additional leave over the next year.

To reiterate as well: I don't have problems seeing PIL for weekends, and am not trying to stand between DH and them. I think DH would agree with every word I've written here - we both love them very much, but their behaviour is so inconsiderate of the needs of anybody else that they are unintentionally difficult to be with. Sometimes we are ready to drop with tiredness at the schedules they put together, and despite point blank being told this, they keep on insisting that we must be relaxed!! It is like something out of a Mike Leigh film at times.

We have talked about broaching our needs with them in more detail, but DH feels that this would be cataclysmic given the family culture: you are simply not allowed to be an independent adult with your own thoughts, feelings, and wishes in their world. DH and FIL have a history with FIL being a real bully. He's had counselling for this and now copes better with it, but it will always be an issue. MIL very much treats me like a small child quite a lot of the time and constantly gives unsolicited advice about absolutely everything - it is affectionately meant, but sometimes grates. Without wanting to sound precious, it does give my ego a bit of a bashing at times and can be quite undermining if she catches me in the wrong mood.

Obviously, the relationship I'm describing is not the most functional, but I do care about them and I wouldn't want to hurt their feelings at all. They are very generous and sweet in a whole lot of ways, they just honestly can't comprehend that someone might want to do different things, or might need some time alone. It has been reassuring to hear from others that older PIL and DP can be a bit like this - I think they are bored.

I will say yes to a weekend but I just don't think I can manage the whole week.

Donkeys - PIL moved GFIL to be near them, rather than moving closer to GFIL. Was v traumatic as GFIL had inhabited his house for 60 years, so a huge wrench to leave. Care of GFIL was a very tricky issue - again, they meant to do the right thing and be kind, but they just didn't listen to what he was saying and what he wanted and ended up bulldozing him the same as they bulldoze everyone else.

DH has a younger brother, who lives quite a bit closer (about an hour away). BIL and DP are absolutely lovely. They have recently started to see PIL more frequently but in shorter bursts to support them.

We have holidayed with my MIL (we had a two-week holiday in a cottage in Yorkshire, and she came and joined us for part of it), and we have stayed with her, and she with us - and it is always something I look forward to with great joy (unfortunately it will not be happening again, as she is in a hospice, and unlikely to survive a fortnight). I would have happily gone on a family holiday with her.

But she is, and always has been, a wonderful MIL, mum and grandmother, and a perfect house-guest. She has also always respected our need for family time, and I know for sure that, if she had suggested a joint holiday, and we'd said we couldn't manage it because dh was too tired from work and stress, or we couldn't afford it, or didn't have the holiday days, she would have accepted that - she would have been disappointed, but completely understanding.

When I am a MIL, I aim to model myself on her - I'll offer advice if asked for it, be there when asked, and will have enough going on in my own life that I won't need to be demanding and guilt-tripping my sons and their families. If I do any of the things that outofcontrol's PIL do to her and her dh and family, I will expect to be exiled to the outer darkness, and I will deserve it!

I really don't think this thread is appropriate for a change of anti-inlaw-ism! They really do sound like hard work. And a week long holiday is a big thing even with the nicest relatives....I love my MIL, we are great friends and would happily spend a weekend together. A week would be far too much though, for either of us!
Inappropriate here, anyway, and more about the anxieties of MIL's (and future ones) posting here, not OP's problem.

So basically you will continue to allow them to run you into the ground because you can't make them understand how exhausted you are trying to cope with their schedules of activities. FIL is a bully and MIL is controlling. It seems that they have little respect for either of you unless you do as they dictate, and then are sweet and generous. If you go against their wishes they can then guilt trip you by saying they have been nothing but nice to you, and this is how you behave.

The only way then is to limit the amount of time you spend with them. You are both adults, you can choose what time you spend with them. If they try to push you into doing more than you can cope with, you can go and pack and get in the car and leave. Then where would they be, without people to boss around?

'....will have enough going on in my own life that I won't need to be demanding and guilt-tripping my sons and their families'

This is so important SDT. My parents and ILs seem to want to parent us now we're adults in the same way that they did when we were toddlers and its unbelievably stifling. You sound like you will be a lovely MIL so good for you

girly - It is really, really hard to explain their behaviour in a way that makes sense, yet I think if you met them you would instantly see what I meant! They honestly, honestly don't mean to be as difficult as they actually are. They are simply unable to empathise with anyone else: they assume that everyone feels exactly the same as they do, in an almost childlike way. They run on rails, and any disruption to their ways of doing things causes immense fuss and consternation.

Their behaviour is quite extreme at times, but it honestly isn't meant maliciously. (I am not being naive - at least I don't think so - they really are just a bit cloth-eared socially). While I am super-glad and grateful that they aren't horrible people, in some ways, the fact that they are inadvertently like this actually makes the situation less straightforward to deal with. I would hate to hurt their feelings.

Without wanting to stereotype they are both only children which may contribute (though I know some lovely and thoughtful only children, so I feel like I'm being unfair), and they both gave up work many years ago so have been used to being in their little bubble without the need to consider anyone else.

I know that it could be a whole lot worse, from some of the horrific stories I read on here. I am trying to build bridges with MIL by ringing her for a girly chat, just the two of us, every couple of weeks. I hope that this might create a better and more understanding relationship on both sides so that the situation gets easier! I am also trying to be better at accepting advice - I am very fiercely independent and I need to get over that!!

SDT - you sound like an amazing person, friend, support, MIL.

Oops, sorry, meant to type 'MIL one day'!!

Your last posts really resonate with me, my mil is very much the same (though her need to control is expressed quite differently), she has an inability to empathise with anyone else's needs. Her own personal preference becomes 'a truth universally acknowledged' in her head and she genuinely astonished if anyone deviates from that. She's an only child too (as am I so I can say that!)

I don't know what the answer is but I won't go on holiday with my pil either!

Gosh, you poor thing. I've been on holidays with my ILs quite a bit, but they are NOTHING like yours!

Have you thought about booking somewhere like Haven? They have kids clubs and activities which everyone can do.

But it means that you can book your children into a kids club which is JUST for children - ie CANNOT include your ILs - to give your DC time away from the grandparents.

You can also say that you want that opportunity to rest or do another particular activity, but because there are loads of 'grown up' clubs you can try to tell your ILs that there are plenty of other people to do what THEY want to do with, but that YOU'RE doing X (having a spa session or something like that)

(Disclaimer - I haven't actually ever been on a Haven holiday myself!)

Any holiday place which has kids clubs is worth having a look at.

It might be a way of really drumming the message into them that you WILL NOT be at their beck and call on holidays.

If you can manage to make this type of holiday work for a long weekend, you could then, just possibly, make it a longer time some other time.

In all honesty it is sometimes easier to deal with these type of overwhelming personalities in larger groups - it dilutes their effect.

You don't sound remotely independent to me, an independent adult would not need to indulge these awful people, excuse their behaviour, give up their free family time for them, allow themselves be dictated to, treated like a child and then say they need to allow themselves to become more dependent and indulgent because it will make these bullies happy. You may like the idea of independence but you and your dh need to cut the apron strings before that's a possibility.

They don't respect you as independent adults with your own thoughts and feelings? Of course not!!! Give a guess why!!!!

These people are not nearly as stupid as you've convinced yourself in an attempt to justify their behaviour. They know exactly what they're doing, it's works for them because they're surrounded by meek cowards who won't stand up for themselves. People can only treat you this way because you let them.

They will never listen you you or respect you no matter how much you fake smile, meekly beg, plead, simper. They will bulldoze through your cowardice as they've always done and always will do until you stop them.

Say no, stop contacting them, block their numbers when you don't want to talk to them or when they're trying to lay any guilt trips on you, see them for what they are and stop excusing their behaviour. If you have to cut them out for a while, then do. Don't tolerate their abusive, invasive and disrespectful behaviour. It'll only get worse.

you are simply not allowed to be an independent adult with your own thoughts, feelings, and wishes in their world

I think this, more than anything else you say, gives you carte blanche to say to them 'NO, we are not going on holiday with you.' and leave it at that.

If they aren't interested in other people's wishes then you don't need to try to talk to them frankly and sensibly and give reasons for not wishing to do it.

I hear you when you say you love them and in many ways they're lovely, but you are honestly permitted to say a firm and short 'No' to them and take your holidays your way.

YANBU at all. From all of your posts here you sound very caring and happy to spend time with them. They really do sound like hard work and the current arrangement of spending 4-5 weekends with them a year is very fair given the travel distance.

Incidentally I am very fortunate with my in laws, they are very sensitive to our needs and respect our privacy etc. consequently I am happy to spend time with them, either all together or sometimes I take the kids without DH being there as they love seeing the grandchildren and vice versa. We holiday together at least once a year, sometimes we suggest to, but it works fine because we are all so in tune with each other's needs.

I don't blame you for avoiding confrontation etc with them, as it would either fall on deaf ears, or else end up in a huge unpleasant row. You shouldn't feel guilty about refusing the holiday, whatever excuses you make to get out of it (and future ones). If you were to go, it would probably have a negative effect on both you and DHs relationship with them.

Just say no! Your husband has been bullied by them all his life, and now you are being bullied too. You are both dithering and worrying about them- they are not worrying about you!

My marriage has only survived by domineering MIL (who was awful to my husband growing up) because we are both a team and we do what we want. If we want a break with them, we have one, if we don't we don't. If they want us to stay at their house, tough, we prefer to stay in a hotel. If they want to go out in the evening when we are tired and want to put the kids to bed, that's what we do. We are nice and pleasant and see them plenty and facilitate their relationship with the children but on our terms.

It is not possible to deal nicely and kindly with bullying people- his mum shouts so much he was sick and his dad has bullied him all his life.

I think you have to stand up to them on this one, your life will be much easier. Just keep repeating, sorry a week won't work for us, sorry a week won't work for us, when would you like the next weekend to be and so on.

Yes to 'No we are not going on holiday with you'. Don't tell them where you are going or when in case they try to turn up as a 'surprise'. Keep your phones off most of the time, you are supposed to be relaxing; just check messages from time to time and ignore anything not urgent.

My friend was in the reverse of your situation, where his mother got all her three sons, one wife, one partner and grandchildren to go on holiday with her. Once there, the mother wouldn't go anywhere or do anything. She just wanted them all there, sitting around in the hotel, fussing over her! The others all took the view that they had paid for a holiday and that they were all going to do what they wanted and their mother could like it or lump it. So she was largely on her own from after breakfast until dinner, but it was her own fault because if they'd known they were expected to stay in a hotel doing bugger all they'd have not gone/gone somewhere else. She knew that they wouldn't have gone if she'd made that known. Then she had a row with the manager because she claimed the bill was wrong. It was her mistake not theirs, but she refused to apologise. Her sons were mortified. They all agreed that they would never go away with her again, it was an expensive week to only partly enjoy (when they were doing their own thing) and it wasn't a cheap hotel.

I think in this case, I'd just hard line it.
-We can only manage 4 days for our vacation, when would you like to go?
-I know, it would be nice for a longer trip, but we can only manage 4 days.
-I hear you, but as we can only do 4 days, lets make the best of it
-I see what you are saying, but we can only go for the four days
Repeat as needed!

Rollontomine - I do hear what you and others are saying. They are difficult, they do bully and bulldoze others (not just us, but everyone). They honestly just completely lack social graces and any ability to see the effect of their behaviour on others. Sometimes I wish we could have someone come in and film it, because I think they would be a bit shocked to see themselves.

I am actually quite feisty in most situations, believe it or not. I am the person who will ring up and complain about stuff if there is a need, and who will talk out a compromise where necessary. I'm pretty comfortable with negotiation. But this feels different, partly because I feel like I have both hands tied behind my back. I need to compromise far more than I would with anyone else in my life for the sake of DH. Even if I wanted to cut contact (which I don't) - I doubt he would be able to do it - the guilt would absolutely destroy him, and he'd be very unhappy. (I also don't think one partner can demand this of the other - it isn't fair. It has to be a mutual decision in response to outrageous behaviour, and this situation simply isn't that bad).

It really should be up to DH to 'set' the dynamic more firmly, but because of the past bullying & violence it isn't that simple. Even though he seems really capable to others, he is quite deeply damaged by the whole thing underneath. So we are going forward step by step at the moment.

I think Beachy & OnlyLovers have the right idea - that is precisely how we will have to phrase this, just restating, restating, restating.

The problem is, they will ask point blank: 'Why can't you have more days? You should take more holiday!' etc. We are going to have to learn to say, politely but firmly: 'We need a break just the two of us. Things have been stressful lately. It would be lovely to see you for those 4 days though'.

As I said earlier, no is a complete sentence.

Tell them it's a lovely idea, but it doesn't work for you, you don't need to tell them why, just no, it doesn't work for us.

The problem is, they will ask point blank: 'Why can't you have more days? You should take more holiday!' etc. We are going to have to learn to say, politely but firmly: 'We need a break just the two of us. Things have been stressful lately. It would be lovely to see you for those 4 days though'.

Sounds like a good plan. Use the broken record technique. Just keep restating the same words. Don't add to your argument with anything else in an attempt to justify it, just keep saying "I hear what you are saying but we need a break just the two of us. Things have been stressful lately. It would be lovely to see you for those 4 days though."

I agree with wobbly, your phrase above is excellent. Stick to it!

Good luch outofcontrol, I would think of several stock phrases for different situations that crop up regularly so you can both learn them off pat.

When you are with them it may a case of tomorrow we need a lazy morning, you go off and do x we will meet you for lunch so on and so on.

You can do this! Your last line of your last post is perfect.

I think that seems sensible, be firm with them. They have each other it's not as though they have lost their spouse and are on their own for holidays. I'm not sure the more clingy because they lost an elderly parent is necessarily true. My parents didn't become more clingy when their parents died, they probably felt more free to go away and do their own thing. It sounds as though it's more bossy than clingy anyway.
I wouldn't give them excuses as to why you can't spend longer and if they fuss tell them that if they don't want you to come because the time you can spend doesn't fit their time then they can go alone.
Also when you are with them it's your holiday as well as theirs, start being as assertive as them in how you want to spend the day. If they moan you can tell them that you find them too controlling over how you spend your holiday and if you are to holiday together they have to be more laid back and let people make their own decisions more.

I often find, when I'm asked to do something I don't want to, I simply say that I don't want to do it. As soon as you start giving reasons or excuses then people have something to argue with.