Holidays and in laws!

[outofcontrol2014]

My MIL is being very clingy these days. Completely understandable because she lost GFIL at the start of the year, after a long illness. DH and I are trying to be supportive, speaking regularly on the phone, sending gifts, seeing her and FIL as often as we can (they live a 5 hour drive away, which means this has to be for a weekend, which we manage 4-5 times a year).

MIL and FIL have recently started to press extremely hard for a family holiday away. However, while I am comfortable to go for a weekend, I know that I cannot emotionally or practically be there for a whole week.

There are several aspects to this. Firstly, DH has a very responsible job and is often able to take less than 10 days' holiday a year. (Yes, he has a statutory entitlement to more, but feels that he has to be present more often to keep on top of things and look after the people he looks after). If we spent a week with PIL, it would be literally almost all of that time used up. We barely get time to ourselves! Selfishly, I would like us to be able to take a holiday alone.

Secondly, I am quite a private person, but PIL insist that the entire day from 9am to 11pm has to be filled with Activities, and all of those Activities have to be done as a group - meaning that there is literally no time for people to do their own thing. If you opt out, there is sulking! You even have to go together in the same car, which means there can be no escape. For someone as pathetically introverted as me, I find this a real challenge!

Thirdly, PIL are extremely loud and they talk without stopping from one end of the day to the next. If there is no-one in the room, they will talk to themselves. Naturally with so much talking there is very little space for them to listen to anyone else. I have health problems and sometimes I can't do the activities they want to do - and however clearly I try to express this (and I have been quite blunt about it) they simply bulldoze me and go ahead anyway. I find this very difficult to deal with, particularly as it often leads to embarrassment/pain or anxiety about embarrassment/pain on my part!

WIBU to say no to the whole week, but yes to a weekend as part of it? How should I go about dealing with this. I can't emphasize enough that PIL mean well and have had a rough time lately, but are just very used to having their own way.

OK, so salvo 1 happened over the holiday thing and I did a TERRIBLE job. More advice needed. :(

In my defence (making excuses) I was at the hospital yesterday having a gynae investigation, so I was tired and not feeling my strongest. I rang MIL to give her an update as to what was going on. By that stage I was feeling quite tired. She pretty quickly brought up the holiday thing:

MIL: We need a week away, as a family!
Me: We'd like to go away. But I don't think a week will be possible.
MIL: We need a week, as a family.
Me: I don't think we can even plan that yet. DH has so much work on with this project. We could do a long weekend.
MIL: He needs to spend time with his family!
Me: I'm afraid it's not that easy. But we could do a long weekend
MIL: No, we deserve a week! Together! As a family!
Me: How about you book a cottage for a week, and we'll come for a few days, and then BIL can come a bit later, so there's an overlap period in the middle when we're all together and you get your week away
MIL: WE ALL HAVE TO BE THERE FOR A WEEK!
Me: I've been trying to get a week for a while for a holiday for the two of us, but the work pressure is really great and it's not possible
MIL: Twist his arm!

She is following, to the letter, the script people have suggested of simply stating and restating the same thing over and over. I don't want to hurt her feelings, but the whole thing made me feel upset and anxious.

DH rang BIL to warn him that this was coming his way afterwards. BIL feels the same as we do, that a family weekend away would be nice but that a week would not only be difficult but actually counterproductive.

What did I do wrong, and what should I do next time?

It probably in real life went on a bit longer than that in fact.

I suck at this. :(

So you've tried being nice and tactful, now just so no. Dh and indeed a week together, a week to rest and do nothing, we do not need a week of activities planned for us. I suggested a long weekend, that as not good enough for you so we won't be joining you at all.

And keep repeating.

Don't give her excuses as to why not, just keep telling her no, that doesn't work for us.

And get your dh to call her making sure he sticks to the script too!

One problem is that I KNOW that if we say to her 'We need a week off just relaxing the two of us' she will say 'Oh, but you can do that with us! We'll leave you alone! You can do your own thing/sleep all day/chill out!' And then if we trust that, we will be frogmarched around places in the family groupthink Borg just the same, because the same tactic of endlessly repeating something and almost daring you to be rude back happens. This has happened before when I was ill once and we were due a visit to her house.

She would promise anything to get us there, but with no real intention of following through.

So I am not eager to even say 'We need a week just the two of us'.

Fair enough, then just be blunt and say no, we don't want to, you can always add, we tried to be tactful and suggest a weekend but you wouldn't have that so no. And keep repeating as she is doing. No excuses about time off work etc, just a plain and simple no.

You can do this!

Dont apologise, dont explain, dont give reasons for why 4 days.

No 'I'm sorry DH is very busy at work we need time to ourselves'

Instead:

'We can do 4 days'

Apologies and explanations give a foot hold for self-centred 'facilitating' which mean they get their way.

'We can do 4 days'
'We can do 4 days'
'We can do 4 days'
'We can do 4 days'
'We can do 4 days'

I think you tried to be thoughtful and not overbearing. This would have worked with a normal person who gave a shit about your feelings. As it was your 'i think' 'i don't think' etc gave her an in.

At this stage I'd write her a letter, from you and dh together so she knows it comes from you both, saying something along the following lines:

Dear pil,

We are writing to you in the hope that you will take what we have to say seriously, since several attempts to have this conversation in person has resulted in you refusing to listen to and acknowledge our wishes.

We will not be spending a week on holiday with you. It is not, and will not be possible for many reasons already discussed with you. These reasons will not change.

As a compromise we are happy to spend a long weekend with you. We are also very happy for you to choose where this holiday is spent. However, as adults we expect to be involved in planning how we spend this holiday time and will not tolerate you dictating a list of activities to us. While we would like to spend time with you doing activities that you enjoy it is just as important to us that the holiday includes relaxation time.

You need to know that our views expressed in this letter are non negotiable. Further attempts to persuade us to take a longer holiday will lead to us refusing to spend a holiday of any kind with you. In addition, holidays spent with you where you refuse to listen to us and attempt to force us into following your itinerary will result in no further holidays together. This will be because either of those reactions from you will be a clear indication that you are not willing to consider our opinions and feelings are important or worthy of consideration. We will not spend our limited holiday time with people who would show so little respect to our feelings.

Hopefully now we've been able to make our feelings known you will understand and be able to compromise on this so that we can enjoy a weekend away together.

Love from op and op dh

I'm pretty brutal about putting my foot down with my PIL on these matters. Obviously this is with the benefit of time and hindsight, but I'll have a go at your conversation:

MIL: We need a week away, as a family!
Me: We'll join you for a weekend - that sounds nice. A week will be too long for us, though.
MIL: We need a week, as a family.
Me: And as much as that might be lovely we will only be able to join you for a weekend.
MIL: He needs to spend time with his family!
Me: I'm afraid it's not that easy. But we could do a long weekend (no change)
MIL: No, we deserve a week! Together! As a family!
Me: How about you book a cottage for a week, and we'll come for a few days, and then BIL can come a bit later, so there's an overlap period in the middle when we're all together and you get your week away (perfect!)
MIL: WE ALL HAVE TO BE THERE FOR A WEEK!
Me: but as that's not going to happen, just let us know which week you choose and we'll try and organise a weekend to coincide.
MIL: Twist his arm!
Me: I'm certainly not going to add to his stress by pressuring him when I know it's simply not possible.

My PIL have a stunning home in the country near the sea and we go there for Christmas every other year. We book into the shitty farm-stay down the road even though there's room for us at theirs. They go on and on about which rooms we can have and I just say "thanks but we like to have our own space". They think we're mad. I'm cool with that!

Be strong op! And make sure your dh is on guard and doesn't inadvertently get bulldozed into it instead!

I think it is a common phenomenon that people get more self-centred as they get older. This coincides with them retiring and generally having more time, which is inevitably at a time when their children's lives are hectic and stressed, and however well meaning they may be, the increasing demands on their children's time can lead to bigger issues and resentment.

i would be honest and say 'sorry MIL but we have very different ideas about holidays...we wouldnt want to spiil your holiday by veing unwilling to join in yiur chosen activities and our limited holiday time alone is precious too. we could do a wedkend -if thats not enough we understsnd you making your own plans without us
repeat
repeat
repeat

sorry for spelling mistakes

I gave in and did this a while back, largely because I fejt bad for dh being the only one with an awkward dw!! Low and behold bil didn't come and sil stayed for two nights then "had to see to the cat" it was a waste of time tbh. All they want to do is eat and sit around but we wanted to enjoy the facilities.
The final straw was them not leaving their precious dinner to come and watch dd in a talent show on site!
I fejt stressed and they hardly bothered with the dc, choosing one morning to go swimmkng without even asking them to go too!

I made the decision many years ago that I do not holiday with other people (except DS of course!). I own a holiday house in a spot that is great for tourists, but no one even knows I own it, just that I rent it every time I go, and they think it's only 2 bedrooms (it's 4) so not enough room for others to stay. If someone happens to be at the same location at the same time I am, then I'm happy to meet up a few times, take them to some touristy locations, a couple of dinners, but they don't stay at my house, they need their own car, and we will not be living in each others pockets for the duration of the trip. It's MY holiday, and I will spend it how I choose.

Have you/DH and BIL considered renting a cottage for 3-4 days which would fit all of you, and present as a surprise to MIL and FIL? If it's already booked and paid for, and given as a gift, then you have fulfilled her wish for a family holiday, but you are controlling the time that you will be away.

Oh my goodness, thank you all so VERY VERY much for your help.

Surfsup - I know that I need to get better at this, and having your input is just brilliant. It is really helping me to see where I should be clearer. Spadequeen/gnome/dropdead/Ledkr - you are right, I need to learn to repeat and repeat. Yellowdinosaur - I'll keep that plan in reserve, I think, in case repeated phone conversations don't work.

All your advice and support helps me to understand where I am and am not willing to compromise. I don't mind doing activities their way for three/four days. I can go along with that - it'll be a challenge and is always something I find tough. I am a writer, and spend most of my days in the company of my own thoughts or with those of long-dead authors in books, so the bustle of a very noisy and boisterous family comes as a real shock to me. However, on the other side it's important for my own state of mind that I feel I'm making a real effort and meeting them half way, because I do care and I want them to have a good time. (Also, they are actually incapable of compromise). I just can't do any longer than a week though. I will not be able to cope, and I feel like I have a right to say 'No!' after all of the help I have had here.

The other thing I've realised is how upset I get and how much I fret about this. I think it's because my mother was extremely controlling and a bit abusive growing up, so being bulldozed in that kind of a way is quite sensitive. It's a bit pathetic that I still feel this way in my mid 30s though!!

Midnite - that idea of our booking the place is quite, quite brilliant and I
think would work!! I will talk to BIL about this after he has had the onslaught from them (this weekend).

Why don't you just say you don't want to go for so long. Non of this 'it's not possible' chat because then you are giving her a challenge to try and make it possible.

"MIL, we don't want to spend a full week on a big family holiday. We would love to spend a long weekend with you but we really do not want to do a full week. That is just too much of our limited holiday time."

Your PIL are controlling bullies and your DH, an adult with a very responsible job, is still so traumatised by them that he is physically sick.

And now you've just casually mentioned "violence"

They need cutting off until you both can see how toxic their behaviour is. You are being far too accommodating. They both sound horrible.

And I speak as someone who is happily going on holiday with my ILs next week.

I think when she starts repeating 'it must be a whole week' all you can do is repeat 'it'll be 3/4 days or we won't be able to come at all'.

If that doesn't work. Then a flat 'no'. It will cause upset and sulking but if you don't stick to it now this will happen every single time.

She's blanking you - as you say, you're being managed by her using the stuck record technique whatever you say, no matter how you try to explain.

I suspect for that reason you're simply going to have to go with "No." when what you're saying just isn't registering.

MIL: WE ALL HAVE TO BE THERE FOR A WEEK!
You: No.
MIL: Twist his arm!
You: No.
MIL: Rant rant rant!
You: No.
MIL: A thousand reasons why you should do this!
You: No.

When she finally comes off script to ask why, then you can make a short, clear statement, "We've decided to do THIS so if you'd like to do THAT it would be great."

MIL: Whole load of stuff about week!
You: No.

You're right.

What do I do if she brings up the GFIL dying thing? Because that is the reason she's being so deliberately deaf - she's trying to build a family around her because of her grief (which she doesn't acknowledge in any other way - breezing through - "everything is just fine", even though it clearly isn't).

We want to be supportive because I do understand that she feels bereft and because of family culture, talking about it is a no-no. Do you think I could say something like 'I know you've had the most awful and upsetting year and that it's been really tough. We are here for you, we really are. You can call us at any time, and we'll make sure we see you for weekends every couple of months. We're happy to help with anything practical too. But a week away is too long - we need some time to ourselves for the sake of our marriage. And I have my own family, too, who need some time."

Or is that too much justification? Wotfink people?

If she's pulling the GFIL death as an excuse to get a holiday she is manipulative and emotionally blackmailing you. What is she 60 something? Most people of her generation will have lost at least one parent by their 40s.

possibly too much...after all you dont want every other weekend being booked up do you??

She is in her mid 60s. GFIL was the last living parent of FIL and MIL.

She will go there.

One thing that I could maybe point out is that my own rather elderly GM is far from well, and that due to the way DH's family have tended to monopolise all spare time, I've hardly seen her at all the last year :(

I don't think you should try justifying why you want some time to yourselves. She'll just keep on. I reckon you just have to say it's the 3/4 days or nothing.

Yes, it's horrible that she has lost someone but that doesn't mean she can guilt trip you forever. Your need to have some time to yourselves is just as important as anything she might want.

ask your dh...when his parents were his age did they have lots of holidays with their parents???