to not know what to do about Santa

[KleineDracheKokosnuss]

DH suggested I ask you lovely ladies for advice . And yes, I know it's not even Halloween yet...

I have a DD, who is two. We are coming up to her first Christmas where she might have a vague idea of what is going on and could understand a little about the various customs. I'm not religious, so Christmas for me is just a mid-winter feast/party/bit of time off work that I can spend with my DH/DD. The problem I have is what to do about St Nick. I can't decide if I should tell her he is real (and have to disabuse her later/risk having her spot that mummy lied) or perhaps take a different approach (in which case what approach?).

In part, I wonder if Terry Pratchett has it right and you have to tell children the small lies (tooth fairy, Santa) in order that they can later wrap their minds around the big 'lies' we use in society in order to be society (truth, justice,...). On the other hand, it just feels really wrong to me.

There is yearning and longing and wondering though, I remember I used to get so excited wondering what I would get for Christmas, and my parents used to arrange lovely surprises around Christmas time, I remember finding a Christmassy chocolate treat in my lunch box on the last day of school (probably banned these days!), and one time my mum said we were going out to buy a dishwasher, but then took us to the cinema to see a Christmas film, afterwards we had hot chocolate and went ice skating, it was amazing!
So I always associate Christmas with excitement and wonder, and I still get very excited by Christmas now. Not believing in Santa hasn't made a jot of difference.

surprises yes its not the same.

i am not knocking your xmas, I still got excited too after I found out at 7/8 ish and yours sounds wonderful but wondering if presents will fall off sleight, will you catch a glimpse, can you see the sleigh in the sky....not the same

I don't feel I NEED to lie to my kids I just do. You can call it a white lie, bending the truth or a fib. It's still a lie.
With the injection - should I say it will hurt like fury and sting for a long time afterwards? Or should I say it will not hurt much, giving them an idea that it will hurt a bit, so I can actually coerce both boys into the doctors at once?
I told them that grandad had died because his heart didn't work well enough to keep him alive. Should I have told them that he died in agony over a long period of time due to septicaemia which eventually caused heart failure?

I don't think I am a bad parent because I lie. If it was really important I would tell them the complete truth. I can't see the point spinning out the whole story if a quick lie will cover the facts. If it backfires then that's my lookout and up to me to explain why I was such a filthy liar at the time.

OP, I understand your dilemma. I felt the same way - I went along with the Santa thing, but felt very uncomfortable with it, and felt relieved when my DD worked it out for herself (she was about 5 and full of tricky questions).

The only person I know who never did Santa with her kids was a Christian who thought that, if her children found out that she'd lied about Santa, would think that she'd also liked about God. I didn't really follow the logic but she was very definite about it. We lost touch so I don't know how it worked out.

You'd really put those things on a par with the Santa story, MERLYPUSSED The chances of your children calling you a filthy liar when they work it out is non existent vanishingly small, unless they're as highly strung as you appear to be.

I'm not highly strung at all.

Just pointing out that I tell lies to my kids and it doesn't make me a shit parent. And I object to it being inferred.
They wont call me a filthy liar when they find out about and lies/untruths/white lies/fibs/whatever because they are great kids that will understand at the time that I am doing the best for them.
We do father christmas, as I mentioned before, because THEY believe him to exist. Along with elves, red nosed reindeer, fairies and monsters.

My ds2 was 11 last year and asked if fc was real or us after the toothfairy had forgotten to visit several days in a row and he was really upset with me for lying to him. It was horrible but I told him it was a magical time of year and he had enjoyed it all. My eldest ds1 never asked and doesn't seem affected by it so depends on child I guess. I still did fc presents and will do whether they believe or not, its tradition.

No one called you a bad parent merlypussedoff I just didn't understand needing to fib for a lot of your examples, a slightly simple version of the truth usually works for me. It simply seems harder work to think up a 'fib', when most of the examples you gave had real reasons which were not too much for a child to accept or understand, and I just don't see the need for it myself. I doubt any harm comes of it, it just seems odd to me that so many people seemed to feel lying to toddlers was the done thing.

I gave an example of what I would say, which I think was in the middle between 'won't hurt much' and 'hurt like fury'. The truth. My ds is more likely to go to the doctors the second time if he knows what to expect and feels like he could trust me from last time, but I know children are different. If I told him something wouldn't hurt much and it did I'd never hear the end of it, let alone gain any goodwill next time. We all do what makes life easier for us.

I covered occasions like the last example when I said:

Some occasions where a truth is too big or too painful for them to cope with, yes a temporary white lie may be kinder, but I think those occasions are not every day and you use your judgement on when they are necessary.

In any case, I don't actually think you were lying then anyway "his heart didn't work well enough to keep him alive" is the truth, what I would call a child appropriate truth.

When I said 'bonkers' it was because I found the idea strange, I didn't mean to direct it at you personally, so I'm sorry for that.

Can't help smiling at "if her children found out that she'd lied about Santa, would think that she'd also lied about God."

The religion thing is interesting, I wrestle with it a bit for a similar, though opposite reason.

We have people in the dcs extended family who are heavily involved in a strict (and extremely evangelistic!) religious community that don't do Christmas etc, and I worried, perhaps irrationally, that 'lying' about Father Christmas might make him vulnerable to the bigger and more harmful untruths that he might be exposed to by people with an agenda later on.

But, and I disagree with amouselivedinawindmill I think a bit here, that you can still have magic and fantasy without actively trying to convince your children that something is real when it isn't. I never 'believed' but when Christmas came around I still gave myself over to it all as though it was real, listening out for bells, wondering if he might actually eat the mince pie etc.

Imagination.

When I found out Santa wasn't real, I felt like my olds had been having joke at my expense. I felt humiliated. My children didn't believe and didn't come to any harm. And they're atheists now.

THat's interesting ghetto- I wonder how many other people felt humiliated. It was not my experience at all, I totally understood that my parents were trying to cast some christmas magic for me.

Santa wasnt in the bible was he? Christmas is about Jesus being born not bloody Santa just tell her that Santa doesnt exist he is just an excuse for spending too much eating and drinking too much and falling out with your family

Christmas is about Jesus being born.

So you don't do Santa?

What on earth does Santa have to do with excessive eating and drinking, never mind falling out with family? These all sound like grown up behaviours to me, nothing to do with kids as presents.

When I found out Santa wasn't real, I felt like my olds had been having joke at my expense

How many people feel like that? I think that is totally to do with your own parents and you. Its very rare.

I thought Christmas was originally some sort of winter festival that was hijacked and borrowed and taken by vairous organizations over the years?

I adore the Jesus story, it has a wonderful message and is lovely, its a great balance to the consumerism.

I also cling to the idea of simply celebrating for the hell of it, to bring light into the darkest days of sparse winter.

And I think its taken to a higher even more glorious level with the invention of FC. Its symbolizes all the wonderful aspects of humans to me.

@AMouseLivedinaWindMill

What is the system for policing the "christmas" topics that may end up elsewhere?

Hopefully MNHQ will shed light in this dark corner soon...

Clarity such as it is There are no RULES but tradition states that we usually prefer Christmas threads in its own topic so that those who wish to hide it can do so oh and another tradition is that while we are a site for adults, we're aware little ones can read over shoulders so we prefer to keep the magic alive in thread titles at the least.

HTH
peace goodwill and love to all

tradition states that we usually prefer Christmas threads in its own topic so that those who wish to hide it can do so

Thanks Olivia.
Is Christmas allowed out any time at all, or must it be confined to its own topic.

Shall we all start to report Christmas subjects and is this the case even in December?

God how boring and joyless. Being a Christian is irrelevant. Santa isn't anything to do with god.

I'm not a Christian and Christmas is about Santa to me! (And family, giving, etc, obvs)

I believed in Santa til I was about 9. Still then when I asked my mum if he was real she never said no. She just said that I could believe what I like. When I said I didn't she just shrugged and said it was fine. I still doubted it a bit and hoped he was real!

My DD is only 11 months but we will be having fairies, fairy doors, elf on the shelf, easter bunnies, santa, santas elves, tooth fairy and all sorts of magic. I can't wait!

Has it occurred to you that when your kids are older they may resent you more for not giving them that magical childhood, than for telling them a lie?

I think it's miserable to tell them that Santa doesn't exist. Sorry, just my opinion but in glad I'm not your daughter!

I think 95% at least of posters have been saying please do Santa.

Op seized on one poster who thought like her and that was that, Not sure why she asked really...no consideration or anything went into it.

I agree with you OP, I haven't told my DS that father Christmas is real because trust is so important to me.

But I do tell him it's a game we can play if we want to, and it's a bit of fun. But he trusts me that is it just that. He's fun loving and christmas is magical to him.

I know when I was at school there was too much teasing and tears shed over who believed still, and who didn't. I find it incredible that some people claim to never have been exposed to kids being cut up over finding out it's not true!

I have never been exposed to kids being cut up over finding out it's not true. A friend told me when I was 6yrs. I decided to stay awake and find out! I thought it was a lovely thing for my parents to do and kept it going for my younger siblings.
With my children it was a simple progression:
Belief
Questioning ( knowing, but not really wanting the answer)
Asking outright ( ready to know)
Keeping it going for siblings.

I fully expect they will do the same with their children.

theonlyolivia-- I am not sure that explanation is clear at all. Could you expand a little?

You suggest that christmas should be kept on the christmas boards for the sake of the "little ones".

To be fair MNs is not really suitable for children at all. A vast amount of material being discussed is about domestic violence/ masturbation/rape/divorce etc.
Are you suggesting that the christmas threads are being tucked away to protect the children?
When you say that "tradition states" are you simply bowing to the pressure from some of the older members of this site?

Surely a lot of the material that surround christmas also is relevant onother places too. Family problems, money/debt/food ect.

I would like further clarification please.

No, bigbluestars it is not to protect little ones. The reason for it having its own topic is, as mrsdevere alluded to, so anyone who finds the holiday a tough time doesn't have to see their active convos covered in Christmas threads months ahead of time. They can 'hide topic' and then anyone wanting stocking ideas in October doesn't show up for them. I suspect because it is easier to gear yourself up for Christmas taking over everything in December when expected than have threads popping up all over the place up to three months before.

It is a courtesy, that's all, and part of Christmas spirit includes thinking of others that may be struggling. I don't know how the idea could be more well publicised on the site without defeating the object of it though.

The "little ones" comment referred to 'looking over shoulders' - it isn't a site for children, but for example just in case don't write "when should I tell kids Santa isn't real" in a thread title, as it could spoil it for an idly glancing child, so "keep the magic alive".

That's how I understood it anyway.