To want to be proud to be English, for the English to have their own independent parliament and to stop my nationality from being landed with shit from 100s of years ago?!

[Marmiteandjamislush]

I know I'll get flamed to bugger for this thread, but you what I don't care! I have heard so much stuff about the English everywhere recently, but nobody asks English people how we feel, what we want. Not about Scotland or what other countries in the Union, should or shouldn't do, none of our business imho, but what we want, as English people. How we want our country to run. We are always lumped into an amorphous lump, which still includes imperialist colonials, which boils my piss because most modern English people had nothing to do with that and no power to stop it. When I think of the Scottish People, I don't think of Robert the Bruce, the IRA when I think about the Irish People, so why are all English people lumped together as racist oppressors, it's vile!

Being English can include anybody who wants to be included, for me it's an attitude and a love for the country, which anyone in the world could have if they wanted.

I am crying typing this. I just feel so frustrated by it all. Anyway flame away.

i find the idea of being proud of what is an accident of birth a bit strange. i'm pleased i'm british because it's a relatively nice place to live, and there are a heck of a lot of privileges that come with it. i suppose i am pleased that it is a country that lots of people want to move to and visit and explore, but i haven't really had much to do with that at all, i just live here and feel rather lucky

the english (and british more generally, but english in particular) have treated lots of nations abominably though, which is how many of those privileges have come about. so pride is the wrong word IMO

I am rolling my eyes at that last comment Marmite. You can't avoid direct contact in this sort of forum. That's the whole point - that people are free to discuss things. Janine hasn't done anything wrong IMO. If you're unable to deal with strong feelings being discussed then perhaps this wasn't the right place for your OP?

OP i am scottish and you are so correct we should all be proud of where we come from .each part and part of the union .the best school teacher my son had was an outreach teacher .she was originally from london and what a fantastic person she was .hopefully tommorow we vote together and we can all live in bloody peace together .

Love the Petula, but my point is the same. Most modern English people did do that or have any say in it. To me pride would only be wrong now if we hadn't changed.

i agree with vezzie that the degree of engagement and enthusiasm and discourse in scotland is thrilling. i only hope some of it rubs off on the rest of the UK in the near future

Are, by direct contact, I mean nasty sarcasm to me alone. I know it is a forum and we can speak as we wish, that is why I have politely said what I did. Anyway, that is not what we are discussing.

it doesn't matter whether modern english people had anything to do with previous appalling acts. we continue to benefit from those acts, we have to acknowledge our privilege and how it came about. i'm not talking about constant self-flagellation, but we can't wash our hands of how we have benefited from the actions of our predecessors - because in other parts of the world they are still experiencing enormous negative consequences of those actions too

OP, I had one very mildly sarcastic comment. My other comments were engaging directly with your posts. If you can't handle that, and throw your toys out of the pram, then I suggest an Internet forum isn't for you. You come across as extremely prickly and highly defensive.

when i say we, there are of course sectors of modern england that have benefited more and others that have benefited less or also experience negative consequences - i agree that it's not a homogeneous mass and shouldn't be treated as such. but a unilateral washing of hands and "move on, move on" is not right

But we, the people, can't stop benefiting can we Petula? We didn't build the system and even if we could dismantle and give everything back, the same amount of people and the same people would still be disadvantaged, because part of the problem in certain parts of the world is not just lack of resources, but corrupt handling of those resources.

I agree Petula I have no pride in the fact that I happened to be born in England.

In fact I don't associate with my nationality at all. I am British but I'm not sure what that even means.

BTW OP judging by how upset you have been by Janine's very mild posts I can imagine you are extremely upset by some of the comments being made in the media at the moment.

And you come across as very rude and unpleasant Janine and guessing not used to having your manner picked upon.

And I repeat: We clearly rub each other the wrong way. So let's accept that and say no more about it.

not necessarily dismantling everything, but acknowledging our privilege and how it came about is a good start, especially when it comes to how asylum seekers and illegal immigrants are portrayed in the media - they often come from places that were royally screwed over by the british and are still suffering the consequences

being british (or english) is very useful to me, but i haven't especially done anything to deserve that beyond an accident of birth

i do think though that more could be said about how many people who live in england are not themselves all that thrilled about being governed from westminster. cumbria, norfolk, devon, the midlands, basically anywhere except westminster is often as far removed from that world as scotland is

I definitely think there should be a move to take our flags back from the likes of BNP. Especially the Union Flag, I strongly believe that anyone can be British regardless of skin colour or where they were born, that should be what our flag now represents not racism and division.

Marmite in some of the areas you are talking about the corruption is as a direct result of the intervention of the British and other Western powers. So whilst you are correct in saying that (to paraphrase) you can't turn back the clock, it wouldn't be as 'simple' as that anyway.

If you want an example, look at the way Nigeria was carved up and how the British should hang their heads in shame for the way they failed to react when the Biafrans were so violently and awfully persecuted in the 60s and 70s. The ethnic divisions in that case were directly sponsored by the British, for our own ends.

You don't rub me the wrong way at all OP .

I'm quite bemused as to why you've lashed out at me so much, but heigh ho.

exactly areyoureallysure - we cannot ignore the fact that the cost of our current relative luxury (compared to the majority of the rest of the world's population) is still be borne elsewhere int he world

Good points Petula and Are and I like your ideas Charlie, maybe we could have a campaign, because I hate the BNP connection so much.

yy on the corruption charge, so many of these supposedly corrupt countries are suffering from the lack of civic and collective identity and responsibility created by colonial and neo-colonial exploitation. Not to mention that western powers favoured and enabled corrupt leaders to protect their own interests.

Can we just leave it Janine, pleas.

and I do mean pleas

Janine just said what I did Marmite!

marmite, janine has said almost exactly the same things as areyoureallysure and me