To want to be proud to be English, for the English to have their own independent parliament and to stop my nationality from being landed with shit from 100s of years ago?!

[Marmiteandjamislush]

I know I'll get flamed to bugger for this thread, but you what I don't care! I have heard so much stuff about the English everywhere recently, but nobody asks English people how we feel, what we want. Not about Scotland or what other countries in the Union, should or shouldn't do, none of our business imho, but what we want, as English people. How we want our country to run. We are always lumped into an amorphous lump, which still includes imperialist colonials, which boils my piss because most modern English people had nothing to do with that and no power to stop it. When I think of the Scottish People, I don't think of Robert the Bruce, the IRA when I think about the Irish People, so why are all English people lumped together as racist oppressors, it's vile!

Being English can include anybody who wants to be included, for me it's an attitude and a love for the country, which anyone in the world could have if they wanted.

I am crying typing this. I just feel so frustrated by it all. Anyway flame away.

But we're only talking about the UK, Chapina.

And within the context of the UK, England holds more power and gets to decide the destiny of the UK.

No one is arguing that Scotland is a hell hole. There are huge advantages to living in Scotland or any part of the UK compared to other countries. It's when we compare the home nations that the sense of injustice arises.

Recognition of how lucky we are in a global context is what will stop any civil unrest or violence. One group is going to be hugely disappointed and frustrated but we're not going to resort to violence primarily because we recognise the privileged of being a first world democratic society.

If it's any consolation in America, the first thing that comes to mind when you say Englishman is a guy in a top hat drinking a cup of tea saying "Cheerio darling".

I think with the internet the globe is shrinking and old 1950's stereotypes of countries are starting to fade as we all become interconnected.

I might not be back to this thread tonight, so can I just take a moment to wish Scotland all the very best for tomorrow, and for after tomorrow.

I can't vote, but whichever way things go, I know the people of Scotland will find their best selves and move forward on the chosen track with peace and courage, and with reconciliation after such a divisive time.

Thinking of you all as you go to vote.

(Sorry, just realised your thread might not be the best place to do that, Marmite, but I haven't posted on the other ones.)

Lovely post Surely - I wish them well too, whatever they decide.

I do wish them all the best Surely and I agree with this:

I can't vote, but whichever way things go, I know the people of Scotland will find their best selves and move forward on the chosen track with peace and courage, and with reconciliation after such a divisive time.

I'm off too. Need to feed my boys. Thanks for the discussion (even Janine)

apocolyspe you mention up the thread about the IRA & Ireland being British? I am amazed that this went unchallenged. Surely neither the IRA nor The Republic of Ireland (which is what is generally understood by Ireland) are British

The IRA were pretty much British, and the troubles were an internal British problem. Little to do with Ireland at all.

If you're only talking about in the UK, I still don't think Scotland gets a worse deal in general. The formula spends more money per head on average, but look at the horrendous poverty rates in London, compared to many places in the UK. England, if it becomes independent, would be allowed a greater share- they would, most likely, retain the currency but poss with a currency union, I suppose, but ultimately, they have more assets and more in the pot than Scotland, they're something like 85% of the UK. They would take on a lot of the debt and a lot of the assets.

I wouldn't want independence for any of the UK countries particularly and would be if England left, especially as it retains most of the wealth, it would feel like leaving behind other long standing union members who have put as much money (proportionally) and sacrificed a lot to build up the UK, then they take off when it's looking good.

I think what would help people in the test of the Uk is actually to have more people celebrating their Englishness the way you might in other countries of the UK. Imo, it's a problem that the other UK countries have to fight hard to retain their non Englisness iyswim? If there is a very clear identity which differentiates England from the UK, it would be great for all sides.

I would like to fly my English flag sometimes without it being seen as an advert and endorsement of the racist vileness of the BNP, too. Round here, people fly the Devon flag instead, but I don't particularly want to see even more subdivisions.

I love the different national identities within the UK. I'm just not quite sure what the English one is.

I am also proud to be British. I shall be sorry to lose Scotland if that is how the vote goes.

Apoclapyse I have to say I am astounded by your statement.

Why, SuperGlue? Do you really think it had much to do with Ireland?

"I would like to fly my English flag sometimes without it being seen as an advert and endorsement of the racist vileness of the BNP, too. "

Take that up with the BNP.............

Apocalypse well, yes, I guess I did think it had much to do with Ireland. How did it not?

Apocalypse well, yes, I guess I did think it had much to do with Ireland. How did it not?

Well, it's hard to explain. They were British people fighting in Britain. What would it have to do with Ireland?

I don't know if I am really stupid or if I am spectacularly missing the point of what you are saying but I can't see how the IRA fighting for the 'freedom' of 6 counties in Ireland has nothing to do with Ireland? Or are you saying that because a lot of the IRA members (though by no means all) came from occupied Northern Ireland and a lot (though by no means all) of the atrocities carried out by both sides happened either in Northern Ireland or Britain that therefore it had nothing to do with Ireland?

Pffft

I am proud of my English heritage overall. Like any other country we have done things to be proud of, and things to be ashamed of.

Just think of all the Pink Bits on the Atlas that we used to own

Didn't we give the Roman Empire a run for it's money, or did we surpass them?

And I'm told we have the best sense of humour in the world! What's not to love?

I think the English should be proud to fly their flag the way any other country does and I have seen it being flown more and more in recent years. Take it back from the BNP - it's a handsome flag.