To want to be proud to be English, for the English to have their own independent parliament and to stop my nationality from being landed with shit from 100s of years ago?!

[Marmiteandjamislush]

I know I'll get flamed to bugger for this thread, but you what I don't care! I have heard so much stuff about the English everywhere recently, but nobody asks English people how we feel, what we want. Not about Scotland or what other countries in the Union, should or shouldn't do, none of our business imho, but what we want, as English people. How we want our country to run. We are always lumped into an amorphous lump, which still includes imperialist colonials, which boils my piss because most modern English people had nothing to do with that and no power to stop it. When I think of the Scottish People, I don't think of Robert the Bruce, the IRA when I think about the Irish People, so why are all English people lumped together as racist oppressors, it's vile!

Being English can include anybody who wants to be included, for me it's an attitude and a love for the country, which anyone in the world could have if they wanted.

I am crying typing this. I just feel so frustrated by it all. Anyway flame away.

get the cultural blame for stuff

Can you expand on that, OP? What do you mean?

Curious I have just moved back to Wales and that is a startlingly accurate description of my life here so far

Was there any real need for such a nasty response Janine? I'm entitled to say how I feel. Don't read if you think it's so trivial

It's a bit rich of you to complain that you feel that the English get the blame regards to "cultural stuff" when you've just lumped the Irish in with the IRA in your opening post.

"it often feels like there's no space in the current political discourse for me - the female descendant of working people who barely kept body and soul together."

Right, and this is why I am finding the whole Scottish discourse right now so exciting. It is thrilling watching a people find a voice - such a passionate, engaged, clever, subtle voice - so much commitment and integrity being heard from people who were just statistically never going to be representatives, or properly represented, in stupid Bullingdon Westminster - and just as thrilling watching the Bullingdon types all absolutely SHITTING THEMSELVES because they had no idea it was going to go this close.

I think whatever happens with Scotland we all have to be inspired by this unique level of political engagement. No impotent tearful rage, at "this is not my England", but ACTION

OK so if an element of Scotland are conflating "posh greedy oppressive twats" with "English" - as part of a conversation about escaping them - the correct response is not to cry, because "Oh noes they think I am posh and colonial and exploitative, but I am not": the correct response is, "ok so what is my identity? How do I define myself as opposed to these gits? What does this realistically mean for my politics? And how can I influence the future of my country?"

I've done something about it. Don't expect any thing from it though but I have written to Call me Dave telling him a) there are 40million voters here in England b) after Friday he will be fighting a general election for the UK in May c) him, Cleggie and Miliband bribing the Scottish people to say no by offering Devo Max without a by or leave from the rest of the UK and without abolishing the Barnett Formula will cost their parties heavily and d) those three have taken away my English pride by falling to their knees and begging Scotland to stay. It is nauseating. My hubby is Scottish but I still don't want someone representing the UK grovelling! If I could I would have added 'Man Up' to the message but I ran out of space on the on line form.

I have also written to the other two saying, as I did to Cameron, you have eight months to tell me how Devo Max is going to help the rest of the UK (as the piece of nonsense pledge says about sharing our resources EQUITABLY) and prove to me it will not cost the English, Welsh or N.Irish a penny more in cash or any loss of services. Otherwise my vote walks.

Go to the number ten website and do the same. Inundate them. It'll give Cameron something to think on before he sells us further down the river.

Up until Monday I was staunchly behind the no campaign, even though I and hubby have no say as we are in England (I am English). Now I hope it is a yes. That pledge showed me who is important to this government and believe me it isn't the rUK.

Eugh, I'd hate an English parliament, as it would have all the same problems of the UK parliament without the Welsh and Sctos to add some balance. We're plenty enough dominated by teh South East as it is.

Now, proper regional localism, that would be good. Which is why I think English nationalism isn't a strong force becasue people in the regions tend to feel regional, and being British is a nice way to express that.

Of course, I'm of Scottish and North-English extraction myself so probably have a very particular view.

(Also, who was it talking about 'ancient indiginous people of Britain'? We aren't seriously going to go there, are we?)

Thanks Kewcumber!

I think your emotion is a natural consequence of the atmosphere of jingoism and xenophobia that is infecting British politics at the moment. Jingoism in the form of the Scottish referendum and xenophobia in the form of UKIP. It has culminated in huge pressure to choose which tribe we belong to.... European? British? English? Scottish? Yorkist? Lancastrian? ... and that's not something - unless you discount the odd football/rugby tournament - that we've been forced to do in the past. Previously we could be 'British against the world'... and now we're surrounded by people wanting to force us into smaller and smaller regional pigeonholes. Don't cry but do appreciate that you are being manipulated into feeling insecure.

get the cultural blame for stuff

Can you expand on that, OP? What do you mean?

I mean the oh, the English want to keep people down, yada, yada. People have said things to me when I lived in Scotland that I would never dream of saying.

I don;t feel guilt what what previous governments did in my name - I do feel however a sense of responsibility to handle such issues fairly given that I partly live in a privileged affluent country off the back of what they took from other countries who are now not so affluent or privileged

Oh man, this expresses my feelings completely, and having written similar and just come back to check for updates before posting, I'm just going to let you say it (it's better than my effort).

It would also be nice to be able to fly the flag of my country without people calling me a racist bnp supporter.

Not that I agree with.

Wiggle I quite clearly said I don't do that. If you read it properly! I was giving examples. FFS

Just save you having to go back *When I think of the Scottish People, I don't think of Robert the Bruce, the IRA when I think about the Irish People, so why are all English people lumped together as racist oppressors, it's vile!
*

Yes, but that was the example you chose. You could have said that you don't lump all the Irish together because of tribal politics, treatment of women, the lack of abortion rights etc ffs

(Also, who was it talking about 'ancient indiginous people of Britain'? We aren't seriously going to go there, are we?)

It was me Leggy. A little bit of overblown rhetoric I grant you, but I think it is important to remember history. My mother (who is in her 60s, not old at all) was born into a Wales where speaking Welsh was banned and children were punished for speaking Welsh in schools. Similar was true in Ireland (I am unsure of the facts wrt Scotland). It is only very recently that Scotland, Ireland and Wales have had their cultural identity and values accepted as valid.

Your examples aren't apposite, OP. The British Empire was a system based on racial inequality and exploitation from which all British people benefited and which was sustained by the British governing system (England being the dominant partner in the UK, by numbers and by influence). The Prov IRA were an illegal v small minority organisation in Ireland and the state's forces were wielded against them.

The IRA has been in the news again the moment because of the death of Dr Paisley, it was the first and widest ranging example of historicism I thought of, sorry have offended you. But just be clear of what my purpose was which was to illustrate that I do not associate Modern Ireland with those events, Northern or Southern btw.

Janine, don't high jack my thread please. I wasn't claiming to make mirror comparisions.

Appositeness is not my forte when I'm upset, deeply sorry.

I'm not high jacking your thread, in responding to your OP. I'm afraid you don't get to dictate how people respond to you.

Janine, stop directing nasty, one up posts at me I am not interested. You can engage in a topic without attacking me.

Attacking you? Where?

You know what I mean, you have taken against my feelings for some reason and been directly snarky and unpleasant from your first post. There is no need. As I say, feel free to contribute to the thread but I would prefer no more direct contact between me and you. We clearly rub each other the wrong way