To want to be proud to be English, for the English to have their own independent parliament and to stop my nationality from being landed with shit from 100s of years ago?!

[Marmiteandjamislush]

I know I'll get flamed to bugger for this thread, but you what I don't care! I have heard so much stuff about the English everywhere recently, but nobody asks English people how we feel, what we want. Not about Scotland or what other countries in the Union, should or shouldn't do, none of our business imho, but what we want, as English people. How we want our country to run. We are always lumped into an amorphous lump, which still includes imperialist colonials, which boils my piss because most modern English people had nothing to do with that and no power to stop it. When I think of the Scottish People, I don't think of Robert the Bruce, the IRA when I think about the Irish People, so why are all English people lumped together as racist oppressors, it's vile!

Being English can include anybody who wants to be included, for me it's an attitude and a love for the country, which anyone in the world could have if they wanted.

I am crying typing this. I just feel so frustrated by it all. Anyway flame away.

I am I not entitled to want independence then? grockle. We've talked loads about privilege on the backs of Others, I want independence from Scotland as much as they do, that's the point! RTFT

nobody asks English people how we feel, what we want. Not about Scotland or what other countries in the Union, should or shouldn't do, none of our business imho, but what we want, as English people. How we want our country to run

Nobody asked the Scots either but the SNP campaigned for it and have been doing for years. Where was the English campaign for independence or self governance ? My view is that you (as in English as a group) didn't ask for it because you didn't need it given that the default position is England.

We don't want our MPs voting on wholly English affairs so don't blame us as we didn't ask for that. It's not the place of the Scottish to campaign for an English government, that's for the English to do.

It's like listening to an MRA going on about how it's not fair but without being unable to see the inherent unfairness that exists that they already benefit from.

Yes, Blistory, well put!

But England is not the default. England and the English have no parliament, why shouldn't we have our own? How can you support the right for Scotland to vote on English matters, when you can choose independence? It's that which so F'ed up I think.

I didRTFT. You might get independence,so you'll be happy. But thats not actually what yuo've been talking about throughout the thread: what you want is english pride "without any of that background bullshit" which is just ridiculous. Nobody escapes the background bullshit,, its called HISTORY.

You need to learn your own history, check your priviledge, and try and embrace it without the whining.

the thing is that what english people want often is the default option

or rather, what people in westminster want is the default option. there are different needs in other regions of england (including other areas of london that aren't westminster)

but that's not the problem of welsh, scottish and irish people. english people need to engage politically if they want that to change

Of course England is the default. It has the majority position.

That's not a BAD thing - it just is. But nor is it a BAD thing that the minority want a voice.

I am not engaging on that Grockle I've answered all those charges more one on the thread.

See this *I thought the OP had done that. She wants to embrace an identity which includes BUT IS ABOUT MORE THAN just that. Although that might be me wrongly trying to speak for her.

You are not Surely, thank God and all his angels for your post. smile Clarity.*

Well you'll have to work on the independence from everyne else I suppose. But what are you personally doing about this strong political desire you have? My guess is nothing. You're complaining that nobody is doing it for you......why would they?

Blistory, I was with you right up to:

"We don't want our MPs voting on wholly English affairs so don't blame us as we didn't ask for that."

One thrust of this thread has become acknowledging privilege whether or not you asked for it or can do anything about it.

And, actually since this is in the present day you can do something about that if you want to.

blistory i think it is a bad thing really, because it's a very specific part of england that is the default. but that's not the problem of other regions in terms of voting for independence, especially if political engagement in england is low

So, because of the actions of a select few years ago, nations can never feel pride again. The Germans mustn't have got that Memo, Grockle or they'll be in the shit for eternity.

Good point, surely.

Like I posted upthread, Germans are very chary of excessive nationalist 'pride', and don't really go in for it - apart from football, latterly.

OP, would it help to take the nationality angle out of it ?

No one means any harm by using 'he' or 'Dear Sir' as the default if you don't know the sex of who you are addressing. But as a woman, it rankles and I want to change it. A man may not understand that but that's because his position as the default sex means that it does not rankle with him. Of course it doesn't as it gives him a subtle but definite sense of superiority which he is unaware of. As a woman, I am aware but I'm not arguing for 'her' or 'Dear Madam' as the default but for a recognition that there should be an equal position that we can all occupy. No one lesser, no one greater.

Actually Grockle, off the back of post on this thread I am going to write to the PM and have signed several online petitions, so stick that in your sanctimonious pipe! Admit, wasn't sure what to before, but am now.

They have do have pride Janine, I'm married to one!

Don't get what you mean Blistory, could you clarify?

Superiority is the wrong word from my last post- comfort would be better.

thats not remotely what anyone said nor does it answer the question asked. i guess you would make a politician on that evidence.

I know many proud germans, and english people. Please don't assume that because you are struggling with it,, everyone else is.

I'll ask again, yuo want an independent england, and new national pride. What are you DOING to acheive this? The people behind the Scottish ref have worked hard for many years,are you surprised they have something you have not?

ff the back of post on this thread I am going to write to the PM and have signed several online petitions. That's just today.

ooh you signed petitions online? Guess thats me told!

So in essence you're telling us you have done nothing about it, but you're aggrieved that you can't have something that others have worked a long time for? And you don't think you have a problem with privilege? Okay then.......

It's not about Scotland. I want independence, just sick of the myth, 'the English', evil bastards don't bollocks. Not jealous, more ranging

It's probably no comfort, OP, but I don't believe the English are evil bastards anymore than I believe all Scots are lovely and welcoming.

And I don't know any Scots who do. Please don't let a very vocal minority affect your views. There are bampots on all sides.