To want to be proud to be English, for the English to have their own independent parliament and to stop my nationality from being landed with shit from 100s of years ago?!

[Marmiteandjamislush]

I know I'll get flamed to bugger for this thread, but you what I don't care! I have heard so much stuff about the English everywhere recently, but nobody asks English people how we feel, what we want. Not about Scotland or what other countries in the Union, should or shouldn't do, none of our business imho, but what we want, as English people. How we want our country to run. We are always lumped into an amorphous lump, which still includes imperialist colonials, which boils my piss because most modern English people had nothing to do with that and no power to stop it. When I think of the Scottish People, I don't think of Robert the Bruce, the IRA when I think about the Irish People, so why are all English people lumped together as racist oppressors, it's vile!

Being English can include anybody who wants to be included, for me it's an attitude and a love for the country, which anyone in the world could have if they wanted.

I am crying typing this. I just feel so frustrated by it all. Anyway flame away.

In other words, you decline to check your privilege.

Because it's precisely about privilege.

Ireland, in addition to suffering under colonialism, acquired access to massive privilege under colonialism.

And said so many times above, it is important to acknowledge privilege. It in no way diminishes the crimes of the empire against Ireland to do so.

But it makes you look less of an over-privileged tit when talking to people who haven't been offered those privileges. You've put your finger on it when you mention the importance of listening, as it was precisely to shut the Zimbabweans up that Short flashed her victim card.

IIRC, they weren't impressed.

What q's have I missed? I 'll answer if you tell me?

FWIW the 'pesky natives' comment refers to an imperialist mindset, not a racist one. The word native is not necessarily racist, IMO.

I am confused, who are you talking to surely? Now we're over a page.

Sorry, that last post was to Petula, about

"I'm not going to debate the severity of oppression for different nationalities at the hands of the english specifically."

Seriously, what questions Are?

In your opinion maybe, but that's a very handy way not apologise.

Maid

Quote from me earlier:

If I've got your confused with another poster, I do apologise Petula!

I am going to bow out now. I admit I am not keeping up with this conversation at all, and therefore am not helping.

If Mumsnet HQ remove Janine's posts, I will vote no in the referendum tomorrow.

But are you OK with people feeling an identity as a Scot?

I will be surprised if this question is answered.

Will someone please tell me what questions I am supposed to have 'dodged'? I hate when people do it on other threads, so would like to provide answers but can't see any.

Pumpkin only one needs to be remove imo

who declines to check their privilege?

all my posts on here have been about privilege, and about acknowledging it. this thread is talking about the UK, so i'm acknowledging my privilege within that structure as someone who is english (and will certainly be identified as such by scots, welsh and irish people regardless of whether i call myself british)

when i talk about shutting up and listening that is what i meant by saying it's not my place to debate the finer points of who has been "worse" treated by the english specifically in a wider context. i would rather hear from those people whose lived experiences reflect that historical treatment and its ongoing effect.

i'm not likening an irish person's experience to a zimbabwean's - that's where other privileges such as race and the colonialism of the time come in too, and it is offensive to compare the two as you say. it's just that these experiences don't belong to me, and i don't think it's right for me to claim understanding, all i can do is listen and acknowledge that my nationality, my race, and my class has done some shitty, shitty things to other people and i continue to benefit from that

But are you OK with people feeling an identity as a Scot? Not put to me, but Petula, but of course. Why wouldn't I be ok with that

Marmite, don't rise to the 'bait'. Certain individuals are very adept at jumping onto threads 3/4 way through and stirring it.

You have put your point of view across beautifully, in a well-thought out civilised manner without resorting to name-calling.

Come on, Are which questions?

i've answered that upthread marmite

Thanks, One

Sorry, Petula, though it was one of the ones I'm supposed to have dodged, according to Are

Very interesting thread. I am in almost total agreement with petula and thinks she speaks a lot of sense.

apocolyspe you mention up the thread about the IRA & Ireland being British? I am amazed that this went unchallenged. Surely neither the IRA nor The Republic of Ireland (which is what is generally understood by Ireland) are British?

Nobody is saying that you personally are Oliver Cromwell or that you ever colonised anyone. But you sound incredibly naive about your own history. Are Scottish people not supposed to want independence because it might upset you? Are they not supposed to mention their own history of struggles with England because it makes you feel bad?

Grow up a bit. You live well in one of the most priveliged nations on the planet. And some of your priviledge is directly inherited from your colonial ancestors. You don't have to feel bad about it, but you don't get to whine with a straight face about how unfair it is that others want their independence from your country and how it makes you feel. It's not about you.

Glad you liked it, Glue

i'm not explaining myself terribly well. clare short was being a tit

appalling things of varying severity have been done by the english to different groups of people (including other english people), which have had lasting effects of varying severity. some of those victims have privilege over other victims.

the danger of me, as a privileged english person, saying "what happened to X group is worse than what happened to Y group" is that it can have the effect of silencing Y group in the same was a member of Y group (being more privileged) telling a member of X group that their experiences are the same.

that is what i am trying to avoid, by saying that it is my place to listen

Blistory, I agree with you on almost every word.

I'm actually welcoming the growth of a distinct English identity (after getting over my fear of it emerging from a BNP or EDL quarter), that is proportionate and understands it isn't the whole of Britain - whichever way the vote goes.

For myself though, I'll still be British: but that's a conscious shorthand for mongrel-of-the-British-Isles-nations.

i'm not specifically comparing zimbabwe and ireland btw