To want to be proud to be English, for the English to have their own independent parliament and to stop my nationality from being landed with shit from 100s of years ago?!

[Marmiteandjamislush]

I know I'll get flamed to bugger for this thread, but you what I don't care! I have heard so much stuff about the English everywhere recently, but nobody asks English people how we feel, what we want. Not about Scotland or what other countries in the Union, should or shouldn't do, none of our business imho, but what we want, as English people. How we want our country to run. We are always lumped into an amorphous lump, which still includes imperialist colonials, which boils my piss because most modern English people had nothing to do with that and no power to stop it. When I think of the Scottish People, I don't think of Robert the Bruce, the IRA when I think about the Irish People, so why are all English people lumped together as racist oppressors, it's vile!

Being English can include anybody who wants to be included, for me it's an attitude and a love for the country, which anyone in the world could have if they wanted.

I am crying typing this. I just feel so frustrated by it all. Anyway flame away.

Maybe reconsider telling people who still suffer the effects of colonialism and exploitation to let it go, nothing to do with me, guv. That is from a position of immense privilege. And definitely don't describe their attitude as 'bullshit'.

Seriously Petula?

I am not English, or Welsh, or Scottish, or Irish. I will admit the English have been very decent to me for the last 10 years.

I have lived and worked on 4 continents before happily settling in London, and, from direct experience, I think all the third world, former colonials that you are championing would be staggered to see you cast yourself in the role as victim to those big bad English. I am certain they would see you as a priviledged British woman who was trying to leverage even more privilege for herself by claiming victimhood.

I am not trying to be hurtful. I do think you are getting a bit carried away here and saying silly things that might seem embarrassing in hindsight.

i'm ok with people feeling an identity as an english person, scottish person, welsh person, whatever

it's the pride aspect i find confusing. it's an accident of birth. there are pleasing things that come with being from all those places. going around dismissing the bad things that have been done to achieve those pleasant things is wrong. acknowledging that other nationalities may continue to feel the downsides while you feel the benefits is a good thing

why can't the scots have been mistreated by the english if they were participants in british colonialism?

I never said anything like that Janine, you're just in it for a ruck now and I am not giving you one.

I never dismissed it as that, I explained that the bullshit part comes when people will not acknowledge the acknowledgement of fault and continue to blame individuals with no power.

That's what you said.

where have i said i'm a victim?

acknowledging your privilege (outwith the context of this discussion) is usually about shutting up and listening

"I think all the third world, former colonials that you are championing would be staggered to see you cast yourself in the role as victim to those big bad English"

i AM english - i'm one of the privileged, that's what i've been saying!

I never said anyone should forget what happened and that it was Bullshit. What is bullshit is blaming the wrong people, people who acknowledged the wrong an have done what they can in recompense when there are more effective avenues to use to get justice. I have said this about 5 times on this thread, stop mis paraphing me to score points.

Acknowledge does not mean forget, though and individuals have no power.

If I've got your confused with another poster, I do apologise Petula!

This:

What is bullshit is blaming the wrong people, people who acknowledged the wrong an have done what they can in recompense when there are more effective avenues to use to get justice.

Seriously OP, you asked for suggestions about what you as an individual can do, and then you get all huffy when someone makes one. What's the deal? Other people have made the same points I made on this thread, on a number of issues, yet you keep jumping on me.

And I haven't 'misparagaphed' you or elided anything you wrote, that was a direct quotation.

Anyway Janine, despite your earlier protestations clearly I do rub you the wrong way, so let's just forget about trying to see eye to eye cos we won't and it's boring and throws the thread to keep kyping.

What are trying to show me Holiday? Individual people are the wrong people to approach

Where was I snarky Janine, I ask for options and I already do the ones given so I asked for more. Then, as you have done several times jump on my replies with uncalled for nastiness, I ask you to be civil and acknowledge my part ie we rub each other the wrong way, you don't say what your problem with me expressing my view is, but you keep on and on!

OK, so it's alright to feel your community is Scots, or Welsh, or English, or Irish.

But one should acknowledge one's community's history and current state, good and bad?

I thought the OP had done that. She wants to embrace an identity which includes BUT IS ABOUT MORE THAN just that. Although that might be me wrongly trying to speak for her.

Others have not been rude to me directly, you have.

x-post with OP!

I thought the OP had done that. She wants to embrace an identity which includes BUT IS ABOUT MORE THAN just that. Although that might be me wrongly trying to speak for her.

You are not Surely, thank God and all his angels for your post. Clarity.

Please point out my direct rudeness and 'uncalled for nastiness'.

Oh you are a wily one, Janine

1. Your 'those pesky natives. We did exploit their country's people and resources for hundreds of years, fucked up their societies, and still prosper off the back of that exploitation, but we've said sorry! What more do they want?!'

This makes me out as a racist bigott, which I am not. This thread has never been about race.

2. Tiniest violin -- rude about my upset

i find it easier to be proud of where I live(the town)
you are sneered at if you call yourself english, and told to be sorry for something you didn't do.

kind of proves OP's point imo

I never said anything like that in 1) and to write it on a public forum is vile.

I've lost a key point here. Holiday I don't see where Petula said anything of the sort. Unless I've been reading her posts incorrectly, I think she is of the exact opposite opinion to that you assert, and very freely recognises that she speaks from a position of privilege.

Can anyone clarify?

And Petula, I've never said Scots can't be mistreated.

But I'm extremely uncomfortable with your continual use of groups and segueing between that and the individual.

It's uncomfortably like all other forms of group blame, where individuals then bear the brunt of something for which they are deemed to have "group guilt."