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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think 2 1/2 hours is too long in a dirty nappy?

336 replies

RandallFloyd · 17/09/2014 09:30

DS started pre-school this year and is not potty trained at all. Just not ready.

The school handbook thingy says "your child will not be precluded from attending Nursery should they not be toilet trained. In such circumstances a programme/plan will be drawn up between the school and parents as a positive step towards improving the situation".

He was dirty when I picked him up on Monday so yesterday, at drop-off, I asked them what their policy is. I was told they aren't allowed to change them, they have to encourage them to do it themselves. Also that they have to rely on the child telling them they are dirty. I explained that although he does wear pull-ups he wouldn't be able to do that and there is always wipes, nappies and nappy bags in his bag.

She just re-iterated that that's what they have to do, so I asked that if he is dirty again can they ring me and I'll sort him out (I live 5 mins away). Tbh I couldn't think of any other option.

She agreed but I left feeling like I'd asked something really unusual.

I know it's only morning but surely up to 2 1/2 hours is too long in a dirty nappy? Of course he could have only been dirty for 5 minutes, I'll never know, but he was uncomfortable enough that he wouldn't walk home and was quite sore. And a diet nappy stinks, how can they need to wait for the child to tell them?!

Am I being massively pfb? I genuinely want honest opinions.

OP posts:
Original poster
RandallFloyd · 17/09/2014 11:07

I agree, DontDrink. I think if they aren't prepared to change nappies they should just say that and not accept children who aren't toilet trained. However, I get the impression from this thread that they aren't allowed to do that anymore so are trying to get around it.

I would love to not send him, i don't think he's ready, I think he'd really benefit from another year, or 6 months at least, at home but if he doesn't do this year of practise he'll be thrown straight into full time school next year and I think that would be even worse.

It's going against all my instincts to send him but unfortunately I can't change the system so I just have to do the best I can with what's available. It's so frustrating.

OP posts:
Original poster
RandallFloyd · 17/09/2014 11:09

X-post!

It's really interesting to hear the professional opinions too. I really appreciate the balance.

OP posts:
littlejohnnydory · 17/09/2014 11:09

What about children who are not continent when it comes to starting school, don'tdrink? There will be some with extra needs and also some who just haven't got there yet? Should they be excluded? My DS is 7 and only about 90% reliable with support from his teacher. His current school have been fantastic but the first school he went to weren't. At theage of almost 5 when he started school, he had no idea when he needed the toilet as he didn't have the physical sensation - he also wasn't able to tell anyone when he had had an accident. It is very difficult for schools to get extra funding for a child like my DS so having a 1:1 isn't usually an option. What would he do if staff weren't prepared to help him? Even at 7, he couldn't clean himself properly, so he would be sore and smelly and it would be obvious to his classmates.

DontDrinkAndFacebook · 17/09/2014 11:13

for NT kids there is definitely a move towards training later and later I have noticed, and I really feel that compared to when mine were little, there are far more children still not clean and dry by three. The thinking now seems to be 'wait for them to show you a sign that they are ready.'

I think that's counterproductive and lots of children will happily/lazily carry on using nappies until you start telling them they need to learn to be ready. It is an issue I've seen raised on MN many times and it's causing schools and nurseries a real problem by the sounds of things.

MrsWinnibago · 17/09/2014 11:13

You know you could send him in year one or when he turns 5 right? What's to stop you taking him to toddlers groups and other activities where he can socialise for the next two years and then sending him? Once he's 4 perhaps you could send him to a child minder with more kids on the books so he gets used to prolonged time away from you?

littlejohnnydory · 17/09/2014 11:13

I understand your frustration, OP. We ended up home educating DS until the end of Year 1 while we worked on his toileting problems. It's so hard to know what to do in that situation when all you want is the best for your child. The school DS goes to now have been amazing though, are there other preschools that would be an option?

Thebodyloveschocolateandwine · 17/09/2014 11:13

I would be worried that the staff were avoiding changing him and not caring for him properly.

They sound top down incompetent and potentially cruel.

MrsWinnibago · 17/09/2014 11:14

DontDrink no that's not how people approach it in general. They wait until their child is taking notice of when they're going or needing to go and then they begin training.

Thebodyloveschocolateandwine · 17/09/2014 11:16

Why oh bloody why are we so keen in the UK to push push tiny children to school when they are palpably not ready for it and schools are unable to care for them properly.

We are the only ones who do this people.

littlejohnnydory · 17/09/2014 11:17

If it helps, DS had no problem joining school at the end of year 1. We went to lots of home ed groups and he started Beavers at 6, he socialised plenty. He didn't find it difficult to join the school environment and he loves school now (I miss home ed!).

SolomanDaisy · 17/09/2014 11:20

I'd be furious about the snot encrusted face too. A three year old can wipe their own face, they just need to put out some tissues and remind them occasionally. And anyone who was paying attention to the children they are looking after would notice before they got in the state your DS was and change them. I don't think it sounds like a very nice place.

gentlehoney · 17/09/2014 11:23

I don't care what the rules are. Leaving a child with a dirty nappy and snotty face is neglectful and I think you should remove him immediately.
The staff are telling you loud and clear how much they care for the children. Listen to them!

WomanScorned · 17/09/2014 11:28

You're def. not being PFB, op if you are, then so am I!

My DS is not summer born, but I still ffelt he was too young to be in a formal education setting. So, he went to nursery/ daycare, rather than preschool. He went there to play and to be looked after, and that's what happened. It doesn't look as if this is what's happening in your preschool. My DS was out of nappies very young, but many of the children there weren't, and they were changed promptly and respectfully.

My DS has just started reception and is managing just fine, despite not going to preschool If I don't think he's ready to go full time next week, then he won't go. Not until HE is ready.

So, it might be that a different setting would suit your little boy.

I think shopgirl's point is irrelevant, btw. The early years training and qualifications of staff in either setting will have been the same. There's no reason why some nursery staff can do personal care and some can't.

Good luck, whatever you decide to do :)

Original poster
RandallFloyd · 17/09/2014 11:32

That's exactly what I want to do.
Keep him at home for the next 12 months and make sure we find lots of playgroups etc to help him socialise in the meantime. Then see how he is this time next year.

We are in the process of starting ASD assessments but that's not intentional drip-feeding, I don't think that's relevant to this. I don't think it's remotely unusual for a just turned 3yo to not be toilet trained or to need help wiping his nose. I don't think that's asking for special treatment.

I think my bringing SEN into it would be giving them an excuse to get out of it. I don't think it's workable to accept non toilet trained kids but refuse to change nappies. I don't thing SN come into it.

OP posts:
MrsWinnibago · 17/09/2014 11:43

It isn't relevant Randall you're correct. As an aside why don't you pop ovr to the Home Education board on here....ask them for experiences of keeping toddlers out of preschool etc?

Original poster
RandallFloyd · 17/09/2014 11:44

I don't care what the rules are. Leaving a child with a dirty nappy and snotty face is neglectful (....) The staff are telling you loud and clear how much they care for the children. Listen to them!

Those are my exact fears.

OP posts:
PistolWhipped · 17/09/2014 11:46

I am entitled to ask the question when the OP is a bit vague ('Just not ready'). Thanks for clarifying, OP Hmm

Original poster
RandallFloyd · 17/09/2014 11:48

You're welcome Smile

OP posts:
HavanaSlife · 17/09/2014 11:52

Randel if you dont think hes ready take him out for 6 months. Thats exactly what we did, well we didnt even send him in the first place. The nursery were fine, his hv was fine.

He started last week abd loves it! Ive had no issues with him not wanting to go, he runs off happily every day. I know we would have had isdues if hed gone 6 months ago.

Its been amazing how much ds3 has come on since turning 3. At just turned 3 he was refusing to wear anything on his bottom half unless it was a nappy even though he was potty trained, his speach and understanding are also far better now.

trulybadlydeeply · 17/09/2014 11:56

My son's pre-school changed his nappy every day from when he started at 2.5 until he went to school. It wasn't an issue.

This pre-school is not caring for your child, and they do not deserve to have him there. I would honestly be thinking of reporting them.

littlejohnnydory · 17/09/2014 11:56

I've got one 7 year old who still has accidents, another who was completely independent with the toilet at 23 months and another 2 1/2 year old still in nappies. All children are different.

OP, you're right that the possible special needs aren't relevant to the issue - my son does have Aspergers.BUt at the age of 3, it is not a SN issue not to be toilet trained.

MrsWinnibago · 17/09/2014 11:58

I agree with Havana they're little for such a short time. DD1 HATED preschool and I now wish I'd never sent her. She'd have been just fine I know that now. She's ten and a different child. I could have enjoyed her without the stress if I'd known.

Original poster
RandallFloyd · 17/09/2014 11:58

Can I do that though, just take him out til the start of the January term?
Is that an option?

OP posts:
annoyedofnorwich · 17/09/2014 12:05

Weren't the government on about children starting school at two? Is that still going to happen? Going to have to be some serious changes if so!

snice · 17/09/2014 12:05

It depends whether or not they have a waiting list/will keep your child's place open