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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think 2 1/2 hours is too long in a dirty nappy?

336 replies

RandallFloyd · 17/09/2014 09:30

DS started pre-school this year and is not potty trained at all. Just not ready.

The school handbook thingy says "your child will not be precluded from attending Nursery should they not be toilet trained. In such circumstances a programme/plan will be drawn up between the school and parents as a positive step towards improving the situation".

He was dirty when I picked him up on Monday so yesterday, at drop-off, I asked them what their policy is. I was told they aren't allowed to change them, they have to encourage them to do it themselves. Also that they have to rely on the child telling them they are dirty. I explained that although he does wear pull-ups he wouldn't be able to do that and there is always wipes, nappies and nappy bags in his bag.

She just re-iterated that that's what they have to do, so I asked that if he is dirty again can they ring me and I'll sort him out (I live 5 mins away). Tbh I couldn't think of any other option.

She agreed but I left feeling like I'd asked something really unusual.

I know it's only morning but surely up to 2 1/2 hours is too long in a dirty nappy? Of course he could have only been dirty for 5 minutes, I'll never know, but he was uncomfortable enough that he wouldn't walk home and was quite sore. And a diet nappy stinks, how can they need to wait for the child to tell them?!

Am I being massively pfb? I genuinely want honest opinions.

OP posts:
littlejohnnydory · 17/09/2014 10:26

My oldest child had some medical problems that meant he was incontinent when he started school. We were advised by ERIC (the incontinence charity) that schools absolutely can change a child, there is no child protection issue as special schools do it all the time - they just choose not to and will tell parents it is a child protection issue. Their guiode.lines state that it is inappropriate to make a child wait in soiled clothing for a parent to come in and change them and that leaving a child for a length of time in soiled underwear / nappy can be considered abusive. We were advised that any school or childcare setting should have an intimate care policy - sure enough, when we asked to see the policy, staff were suddenly able to help DS clean up and get changed. Have a look at the ERIC website, even though this is not an incontinence issue (your child is too young), the personal care considerations will still apply.

I also know that I was once on the committee for a preschool setting, where they did have a policy of not accepting children wearing nappies - until the Health Visitors from the area came to talk to them and explained that at 2 1/2, which was the age they took children from, this wasn't a developmentally appropriate target and many children will not be ready until after the age of 3.

Nanny0gg · 17/09/2014 10:29

The two nurseries that my DGC have been to will change nappies and will help with toilet training. The only thing that is a bit bleugh is that they send the soiled clothes home so they may be beyond dealing with by the time you get them!

One DGC wasn't toilet trained when he started at 3 but it was sussed within a fortnight when my DiL decided he was ready shortly afterwards. Nursery were brilliant at supporting this. Other one was only 2.5months so still in nappies and there was no issue with changing him when necessary.

There is no point toilet training till you know they're ready. And I think the nursery's attitude is disgraceful.

Original poster
RandallFloyd · 17/09/2014 10:30

That's really interesting, thank you.

I'll have a look at the website now. I want to go in fully armed, so to speak! Otherwise I know they'll trip me up and I'll end up agreeing with them them. I'm shit at confrontation.

OP posts:
MsVestibule · 17/09/2014 10:34

This is absolutely outrageous, Randall! I can't believe the staff suggested it was appropriate for a just-turned-3yo to change his own dirty nappy Shock.

johnny seems to have some good advice. Arrange a meeting with the Head of Early Years/Headteacher, arm yourself with the facts and get constructively angry! I can't see why they can't wipe a nose, either. Honestly, they're looking after very young children - personal care is part of that.

MrsWinnibago · 17/09/2014 10:38

This country makes me MAD!!! They want children in an educational setting way before they are ready and then don't make it illegal to neglect them! Children under the age of 6 are still very vulnerable and need a lot of care. Full time school begins too soon and there's too much focus on working.

My DD is 6 and is finding year 2 hard as there's much less play and she is very physical. And preschools leaving practical BABIES in dirty nappies is wrong on so many levels!

JustAShopGirl · 17/09/2014 10:38

I think part of the problem may be that for years and years children HAD to be potty trained to start nursery at 2y7m, so staff started in the job NOT having to deal with so much poop and pee cleaning - occasional accidents are very different from having to change up to 20 kids twice a session.

All these changes take time and take 2 adults away from the care of the other kids to deal with one at a time. I agree they should of course clean up the kids, but

imagine if your workplace suddenly went from 3 hours circle time, singing nursery rhymes, painting, counting, stories with an occasional accident to having to change 20 nappies - or watch whist someone else changes 20 nappies... not much job satisfaction there...

(They will be encouraging them to deal with the problem themselves because next year they will be off to school - and "pre-school" has a clue in the name....)

MrsWinnibago · 17/09/2014 10:42

Shop but the majority of children will be potty trained and staff tend to take them in groups for regular visits. It's the minority who need changing in pre school...certainly not 20!

HavanaSlife · 17/09/2014 10:45

That is ridiculous, if they dont want to do personal care they shouldnt work with 3 yo imo

MrsWinnibago · 17/09/2014 10:46

That's right! With small children there is ALWAYS some mess.

Original poster
RandallFloyd · 17/09/2014 10:47

That's exactly how I feel too, MrsW, so it's another reason I doubt myself.
I thinks they are far too young to be in a school setting and I worry that that colours my view, iyswim. That I'm not in a good position to be objective.

OP posts:
MrsWinnibago · 17/09/2014 10:48

No...I can promise you you're not being precious. Basic care needs to be offered!

pieceoftoast · 17/09/2014 10:49

DS's preschool have said he should be wiping his own bum at 3.8. I disagree, and am hoping he will continue to go for a poo at home in the evenings.

He was only toilet "trained" at 3.4. I am glad actually that thinking seems to be shifting around children and toileting - it seems many children aren't ready until 3 or so and finally people are starting to understand that actually pushing them before this is not in their interests.

I didn't know, little, that it is not a child protection issue. DS's teacher said "we can't do it" in regards to bum wiping, the phrase "child protection" was bandied about. Now that I know it is that the staff choose not to do it, I will I postal if I ever get DS to find him in a mess after not being helped with wiping.

Despite attitudes changing elsewhere, it seems to be quite common for preschools to have fictional "policies" against nappy changing and bum wiping. Ridiculous.

Thebodyloveschocolateandwine · 17/09/2014 10:49

Totally agree MrsWinnibago

We are bloody mad here in the UK.

Op it sounds dreadful. Personally I would be looking elsewhere or keep him at home.

TheFairyCaravan · 17/09/2014 10:50

I was a supervisor in a Pre-school. I would be absolutely raging if any child in my care was left in a dirty nappy, or sent home with a snot encrusted face.

Of course they should change the children's nappies. I would think, I am trying to remember, that it breaks the Equalities Act, not to. If a child poo'd at 9:05 and was not changed, his poor bottom would be so sore. The staff members are CRB checked so shouldn't need another member of staff. The setting I worked in was slightly different, we took children from 3 months, so had a changing area in the baby room where we took all children in nappies to change.

If a child had a cold, we'd say "go get a tissue" so they could wipe their nose. Obviously of it was going all over their face, hair, eyebrows etc, we'd clean their face. There would have been no way we would have sent a child home like that.

I used to treat the children in my care how I would want someone to treat my own children, sadly that doesn't always happen. In your shoes, OP, I would be pulling my child from that Pre-school.

HavanaSlife · 17/09/2014 10:52

My 3rd has just started last week, hes a bit late going 3.5, should have started in april but he wasnt ready at that point. In is toilet trained but I was worried about it, he cant wipe his bum or pull up his pants. They were totally happy to help/change him if needed and take children who are in nappies.

Can you look at different nurseries? Maybe one that takes them from 2 so would be more likely to deal with nappy changes etc

DontDrinkAndFacebook · 17/09/2014 10:53

I think it was U of them to leave him in a soiled nappy, but I also think if he isn't clean and dry by day then he should not be starting nursery yet.

Unless it's a proper full daycare place that takes babies as well then I don't see why they should be changing a 3 year old's soiled nappies. I think they need to change their policy on this and make it clear from the beginning. It does seem unfair that they've accepted him knowing he's not toilet trained but are not prepared to change him.

MrsWinnibago · 17/09/2014 10:57

The trouble with that DontDrink is that in a year he will be going to reception! School! The OP feels like many people that she MUST let go before she's ready because the system here is stupid.

Should she keep him out of it and not allow him to expeirence mixing with other DC and then just chuck him into reception next year?

HavanaSlife · 17/09/2014 10:57

So what about children with sn who might need nappies for alot longer dontdrink? Should they not be allowed to go to pre school or school ever

WelshMaenad · 17/09/2014 10:57

Under the equality act, they must change them. It's not legal to require a parent or carer to attend to change them and is considered abusive practice to leave a child in soiled pants or nappy waiting for this, or for any length if time. My daughter had delayed continence going into reception and they tried to pull the 'you must come to change her' stunt on me, I challenged them and policy was rewritten. ERIC have done good resources on their website including a pack called 'the right to go'. You must challenge them.

TheFairyCaravan · 17/09/2014 10:58

Dontdrink it is against the Equality Act to not allow children to start Pre-school until they are toilet trained.

MrsWinnibago · 17/09/2014 10:58

Welsh I can understand you challenging them but did it make you feel unhappy that she was under the care of people who didn't WANT to do the changes? :( I would have been so worried.

HavanaSlife · 17/09/2014 11:01

Agree MrsW, I think this is a problem you are going to have too op. Are you really going to trust them after this, its a difficult one especially if its attached to the school he will be attending

MrsWinnibago · 17/09/2014 11:02

that's it....it's not nice to send your child somwhere you will be worried abot them.

MrsCurrent · 17/09/2014 11:05

This is completely out of order, both my DS we're gone 3 and their nursery never even mentioned it, they just got on with it.

BarbarianMum · 17/09/2014 11:05

Posts like this make me so cross.

They are not allowedto refuse to take untrained children, or to treat them less favorably (which would include leaving them in dirty nappies or calling you in to do the change).

If they need to draaw up an intimate care plan to change your dc - fine. If they need to up staffing levels to accomodate this then that's what they need to do.

If it's not in their staff's contracts to change nappies then they need to change their contracts. It's hardly an unreasonable thing to ask pre-school staff to do.

What they are doing is discrimination and I would go in all guns blazing tbh. This is no grey area, it's really, really clear (I'm an ex pre-school Chair).

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