To think 2 1/2 hours is too long in a dirty nappy?

[RandallFloyd]

DS started pre-school this year and is not potty trained at all. Just not ready.

The school handbook thingy says "your child will not be precluded from attending Nursery should they not be toilet trained. In such circumstances a programme/plan will be drawn up between the school and parents as a positive step towards improving the situation".

He was dirty when I picked him up on Monday so yesterday, at drop-off, I asked them what their policy is. I was told they aren't allowed to change them, they have to encourage them to do it themselves. Also that they have to rely on the child telling them they are dirty. I explained that although he does wear pull-ups he wouldn't be able to do that and there is always wipes, nappies and nappy bags in his bag.

She just re-iterated that that's what they have to do, so I asked that if he is dirty again can they ring me and I'll sort him out (I live 5 mins away). Tbh I couldn't think of any other option.

She agreed but I left feeling like I'd asked something really unusual.

I know it's only morning but surely up to 2 1/2 hours is too long in a dirty nappy? Of course he could have only been dirty for 5 minutes, I'll never know, but he was uncomfortable enough that he wouldn't walk home and was quite sore. And a diet nappy stinks, how can they need to wait for the child to tell them?!

Am I being massively pfb? I genuinely want honest opinions.

Echolalia = if I told you a phrase I. French and you could repeat it. It doesn't mean you can understand it, it just means you can repeat it.

If I told you a question and answer in French you would know how to answer the question, because you've heard the answer. But you wouldn't know what it means.

So if I said "if someone ever says x, you must say y" you could, but you might not know what x and y mean.

Eventually with experience you will learn what x and y mean. But that takes years of patience and photo cards.

So, if I said to DS "what did you do today" he will always say "been park"

It sounds like an acceptable answer, but when I know full well he's been swimming it clearly isn't.

The tricky thing is, unless you know their answer is incorrect, it's hard to tell if they understand or are just echoing an answer that they have been encouraged to say in the past.

If I say to DS "how are you feeling" he will, without fail, say "happy" even if he's breaking his heart.

If I ask him a closed question he will always say yes. So if I say "did you do colouring today" he will say yes. So I think, great he remembers what he has done! Until I say "have you been to the moon on a space ship?" And he says "yes"

My son has special needs, is nearly 6 and still in nappies. We have had years of critisism and even one person phoned the health visitors and told them we were neglecting him as he wasnt potty trained. This is despite the fact that we have all the sn proffesionals in place and have been advised its too early.
I really dont understand why some people feel the need to judge or critise, all children are different. Even children without special needs get there when they are ready, and just turned 3 is hardly old to not be ready.
OP I would seriously take them out of pre- school and consider a nursery. Even the snot issue is appauling, a 3 year olds face would get really sore.
OP please feel free to message me about ASD, echolalia etc at any time.

Sazza that's appalling! I can't believe someone would do that! DS is 8 with autism and a variety of physical and learning disabilities, disorders and medical problems and he is in nappies. No ones ever said anything to me, and if they ever did, I don't think I could be held responsible for my swears.

I did really snap at the health visitor, I said do you know anything at all about my son and when I listed his issues they back pedalled very fast and just said they had to follow up the complaint. I have no idea who it was who complained and at the time it made me feel paranoid that everyone was judging me. The truth is though as no doubt you understand I'd done everything I possibly could to make sure I did everything right for him from the minute we knew something was wrong.
It just seems so many people have fixed ideas that its somehow wrong if a child isnt potty trained very young.

It must be a Wales wide issue then Randall which is rather worrying, I've become something of a minor expert in pre school continence over the past couple of days and I'm shocked by how much the law is being ignored.
My son is potty trained he has been 100% clean & dry for the past few weeks in every situation apart from at pre school and that is down to more luck than judgement, at the beginning of the holidays he had no interest at all in potty training, it just seemed to click with him one day but he is having these accidents at pre school and I fail to see how excluding him is going to help.
I have no idea what is in any of the staff members job descriptions but if the government, be it Westminster or the Welsh Assembly want children to start school at 3 then they need to meet all the needs of those children, if no provision is made in staff members job descriptions then Head Teachers need to speak up and make a case for needing that provision instead of passing the buck onto parents by threatening actions which have no basis in law.
I absolutely agree Randall that pre schools need to be prepared for it, your son deserves to receive a basic level of care and they are not providing that by leaving him in a dirty nappy for 2.5hrs.

Sazza that is awful and I too struggle to understand the need to some people to judge and critisise.
My other issue with my son's pre school is that when the teacher told me they would reduce his hours due to the wetting accidents, she told me in a public place in front of other parents, I just know that a few of those parents will have had a grand old time gossiping about me, I have a thick skin but DS doesn't deserve that.

Snow peas. That is unprofessional behaviour and every teacher knows that. I would have made a formal complaint. That is disgusting.

The ASD assessment is a bit relevant because nursery's experience of him will inform it so if you can work with them on this and keep him there it might help that process. Plus you won't be seen as having a knee jerk reaction to the first issue.

But it's a hell of a balance when he can't communicate with you - I understand that but your instinct that he's happy (albeit covered in snot!!) is reassuring.

Can I add my experience of potty training my child with ASD - he was diagnosed at 6.

He simply did not follow a normal pattern but it wasn't much off the norm either. He was sort of dry at 3 but unreliable and didn't poo in a toilet until nearly 4 (he would poo in HIS potty only so it had to go to nursery with him). In the summer before he went to school (birthday June) he wouldn't poo anywhere but home but his body wasn't ready for that leading to him having some poo accidents and nursery bollocking me for not 'sorting it' out. Quickly his body learnt to poo first thing in the morning. By school he was pretty reliable though we had to set him a toiletting schedule as he didn't know he needed to go and would have accidents / had a urine infection. He still needs to be reminded at times and doesn't ever go until he is bursting / touching cloth he is hypo sensitive to his body - also became constipated for the same reason so for a time we had 'Poo Time' on his schedule.
He couldn't wipe his bum reliably until he was 7 (and is still occasionally sore at 10 tho I don't have to check after every poo) and he wasn't dry at night until he was nearly 9.

I can't tell you the work it took (takes) but slowly, slowly catch the monkey - if you force things it makes it worse...
Diagnosis is irrelevant - I kind of went with what he needed and tried to make sure my worries / pressure stayed separate to him. So so hard though but you are doing a good job .

Just to add that my 11 yr old ds has asd.
He was fully toilet trained before dd.
Some dc master it quicker than others.

It's very difficult to not compare like I did.

Also, lots of new dc have started at dd's pre school and it seems that lots of them aren't toilet trained.

The right nursery will not have a problem with your ds in nappies.
After reading lots of potty training books it says the " average" age can be anything from 18 months-4 years.

I just kept telling myself that she will have mastered it by the time she started school, next September, and took a bit of pressure off myself.

Ultimately, it was up to dd, I couldn't force her, she was ready when she was ready.

That's just horrible for him and you! My dd just started pre-school and they asked if she was toilet trained ( she is -not judging that yours isn't btw!) they said they are happy to change nappies ect, I asked out of interest if they will change cloth nappies as dc2 is in nappies and starts pre-school next year and they said that wasn't a problem at all. They also asked if dc1 was ok wiping ect and I said she's fine except needs some help after a poo and they said not a problem. So clearly pre- schools can change nappies if they choose!!

They can mother and it's how it should be. How ridiculous expecting a toddler to sort themselves out, and to tell them. A lot of them do not yet have the skills to do that, lazy IMHO.

My ds 2.7 has speech delay, noway would he be able to tell them he pooed or wee. He is still too little to sort himself out without help.

If DD3 had been left that long in a dirty nappy she'd probably have had to have medical treatment for the sores! Mind you, she got blisters on her bottom literally within a minute of doing a poo. Her nursery (day care setting) knew that and made sure to change her very quickly.

I'm very seriously thinking about going the official complaint route Hurri1cane and beginning to regret I haven't done so already, I will certainly be raising the confidentiality issue this afternoon.

Some of these children could have continence issues, I think it's pretty bad they are being denied an education at this age for this reason.

I'd take that further snow for sure.

The children in DS place have just started and are all having accidents!

Exactly snow, they have a right to an education as a child who is dry. Denying a child education because they are not continent, is unacceptable. I am shocked at the number of establishments, that require toddlers (not school age children) to be dry, and do not have the facilities to deal with accidents. One questions who are they doing it for, certainly not the children. You would not leave an elderly person in their own waste for 2.5 hours, why is it ok for toddlers!

I know a young man (with a very high ability) who was not dry in the daytime until beyond puberty. Should he have been excluded from education on that basis?

I am pretty sure its illegal to refuse a child an education due to them not being toilet trained whether special needs are involved or not.I cannot understand people who work with young children will not change them if they need their nappy changing do they not have a duty of care towards the child? For many years I worked in dementia care I,m amental health nurse whilst I realise attending to the personal care of adults is different to that of children surely the principle is the same I had a duty of care to my patients to ensure they were clean and comfortable and not sitting for long periods wet and soiled.

Children with continence issues ARE protecting in law but it can be a fight - sadly ??

And Korma - I agree with what you say about ASD not necessarily being the issue - with my son it was developmental 100% it was just how we approached it and not getting stressed. At that point he didn't have a diagnosis so I just went with it but the pressure was IMMENSE to sort it out.

I wasn't trying to make a connection - far from it but I wish some had said to me 'look it's fine, he will do it eventually' and that actually didn't happen until ASD was first mentioned when he was 6 and it was hard to be chilled against the pressure.

Good luck with the meeting Randall - I think you must be in the same area we were in, in Wales. I'd forgotten that we couldn't use the eyfs funding for a private nursery or childminder in Wales.

Estyn do inspect some Cylchoedd Meithrin - google yours and you'll find out who inspects them. definitely look at the ERIC website, that's where I found all the useful info I approached the school with. Their helpline was very useful to me too.

My ds had the same issue with saying "no" when asked if he had done a poo. He would come out of school and I'd smell it before he got to me but the teacher would accept his no because she didn't want to change him. It's a tricky one as forcing a child to be changed could be a problem, I can see that. Your son needs a written care plan and they need to show you their written care policy.

Although I know it's the case that the Ctylchoedd meithrin and school nursery classes often ask parents to come in and change, it just isn't within the law, whatever they tell you. Well done for sticking up for your boy and good luck.

What a pile of shite is being posted on this thread. Working mothers being blamed for lack of parenting? WTAF?

It IS perfectly 'normal' for a NT child NOT to be potty trained by/until 3yo.

My own DS (now 9) didn't even start PT until just after his 3rd birthday. he had been showing some small signs of readiness the month or so before, but due to the fact that we were due to go travelling, visiting friends abroad, i decided to tackle it when we got back. to have attempted anything before then would have been distressing for him, and would have been pointless.

All children are different, situations are different what IS disgusting is posters on here calling others names for things that really AREN'T that unusual, just because it wasn't their experience. My child pooed in a potty before yours is not a reason to attack another mother.

I couldn't breastfeed either, do I get burned at the stake?

I would remove your DS from the nursery OP, as they genuinely don't seem to care about his wellbeing.

"You would not leave an elderly person in their own waste for 2.5 hours..."

Sadly, Aeroflot, some places would do just that. :(

I know Thumb, thats why I thought oh oh after I typed it, as it does happen a lot. I as an ex carer would never do that, but other staff are happy to.

Too true but we wouldn't be allowed to take a job caring for the elderly then say, oh sorry not doing personal care. So i don't think you should be able to do it with children, if you don't want to come in contact with poo, dont work in an area where you come in contact with poo!