To think 2 1/2 hours is too long in a dirty nappy?

[RandallFloyd]

DS started pre-school this year and is not potty trained at all. Just not ready.

The school handbook thingy says "your child will not be precluded from attending Nursery should they not be toilet trained. In such circumstances a programme/plan will be drawn up between the school and parents as a positive step towards improving the situation".

He was dirty when I picked him up on Monday so yesterday, at drop-off, I asked them what their policy is. I was told they aren't allowed to change them, they have to encourage them to do it themselves. Also that they have to rely on the child telling them they are dirty. I explained that although he does wear pull-ups he wouldn't be able to do that and there is always wipes, nappies and nappy bags in his bag.

She just re-iterated that that's what they have to do, so I asked that if he is dirty again can they ring me and I'll sort him out (I live 5 mins away). Tbh I couldn't think of any other option.

She agreed but I left feeling like I'd asked something really unusual.

I know it's only morning but surely up to 2 1/2 hours is too long in a dirty nappy? Of course he could have only been dirty for 5 minutes, I'll never know, but he was uncomfortable enough that he wouldn't walk home and was quite sore. And a diet nappy stinks, how can they need to wait for the child to tell them?!

Am I being massively pfb? I genuinely want honest opinions.

DS became eligible for his 15 hours of pre-school at 3.4 years. We had the choice of one attached to the local school or a private nursery which takes children from 3 months. We went for the nursery in the end as they seemed willing to change DS with no fuss. The pre-school were very non-committal and stated they preferred children to be toilet trained. I did remind them that was discrimination and I had a better offer.

DS is now 4.4 years and is at a special school. He only has three words and if you ask him if he has done a poo he screams no even when he has. DS has severe autism and therefore sensory difficulties. He is hypersensitive and so doesn't feel the urge to go the toilet and nor does it upset him when he has gone. So randall you may well find it is related to his ASD and therefore this is an easier route to use The Equality Act as by refusing to change your DS it means he is unable to have the same access to education as his peers and that's discrimination.

I'll make sure my 'disgusting' son is far away from some of these posters - he might not have got toilet training at 4 but he's at least learned to be so judgemental.

I'd be inclined to shift nurseries if it was me.

3 does seem late though to me. Could you not start potty training him? Doesn't excuse the poor attitude of the nursery though.

Trouble is that in wales should the school nursery place be available you will not get funding for a private nursery.

3 is not late! And only just 3.

Obviously the thought hasnt occured to the op, she should just start potty training him!

There you go Randall, bet youve not tried that one

3 is late. Only on mumsnet is 3 not late!!

Nothing 'wrong' with being late particularly, but it is late! (sn aside etc)

3 is not late for a child to be toilet trained particularly for poos as opposed to wees. Preschool providers (as well as school) are no longer able to refuse to take children who aren't toilet trained due to their level of maturity or a disability that affects their ability to toilet train. To do so would be an act of discrimination.

As to changing children - it is a failure of their duty of care to leave a child in a soiled nappy for a period of time. Staff do not have to change a child in pairs unless there is considered to a risk of accusation. All staff working with children should have been vetted and it is unreasonable to expect schools, preschools etc to always have 2 members of staff available. The preschool etc could draw up an intimate care plan with the parents to cover who will change the child etc if they are not happy to just do it. Tbh though this shouldn't be needed for a 3 yr old because a lot of just 3 yr olds are still working on toilet training. And to expect a 3 yr old to sort themselves out if just ridiculous IMO.

If it keeps happening I would contact Ofsted and tell them you are concerned about the preschool breaching their duty of care for your son.

If you are In Wales. You need to google CSSIW and go to their contacts section and ring up the officers for your region and tell them what is happening. They will explain that yes, Cylch Methrin / Playgroup staff actually do need to change nappies because most children are not trained at 3 years old!

Just to clarify CSSIW is body that inspects pre school / care environments in Wales. Ofstead are the body that only inspects in England!

So many great tips eh, Havana!

My DS seems similar, JJ. He hadn't got a clue when he needs to go and doesn't care when he has. If you ask him if he's pooed he'll answer yes or no but randomly, it doesn't actually mean anything. Until you try and change him then he's kicking and yelling 'NOOOO, IT'S JUST WEEEEES!'

Ah, is CSSIW the nursery equivalent of Estyn?

*As someone else said out of a class of 25 if there are 1 or 2 children with special needs who need changed thats not going to make as big an impact on the day compared to 20 still needing full nappy changes through out the day.

I really understand that in the minority of cases children arent ready but when growing numbers are getting older and older it does make me go *

I totally agree. I think years ago, forcing kids on the potty at 12 months old was silly. But it's gone to the other extreme that parents aren't even trying to potty train until after 3.

Both my boys were clean and dry during the day at 2.1 and 2.2 months. It took less than a week. So this idea of waiting until they are older so you have less accidents isn't always true.

I am having a very similar problem and think I am the poster JADS mentioned, we are in Wales and have been told that if my just turned 3 year old has another accident at pre school then they will reduce his hours, he has had just 2 days when he has had accidents, every other day he has been 100% clean & dry.
You don't happen to be in a county beginning with C that is famous for it's castle & cheese do you Randall? I rang the council education department today looking for advise and they were seriously clueless.
Funnily enough since I followed the advise I was given on my thread and also from ERIC to request a meeting and copies of their policies the teacher appears to have adopted her own policy of avoiding me and the TA is suddenly being overly friendly. If I had a suspicious mind I would suspect my request has ruffled a few feathers!
So far they 'haven't had time' to get the copies of the policies I requested but I have an appointment to see the teacher tomorrow at 3.30 so we will see what happens.
I would highly recommend ringing the ERIC helpline, they were brilliant, I found them by just googling ERIC.

Betty and all children are different. So your boys don't matter in this instance.

Snow Randal is in Wales but I am in a C county famous for cattle and cheese!

Is that him teasing or has he only wee'd?
DD does tease me
Personality makes a difference for potty training, whether they get too engrossed in playing, mind being 'dirty'
She still poops 3 times a day so i dare not leave her nappy off

People don't generally just wait and do nothing.

They try, and the child isn't ready. I tried quite a few times you know.

Yours were ready before mine, there really isn't a Poo Medal for it.

Re: the OP. I think the nursery were very unreasonable to leave him unchanged.

Re: potty training in general, of course all kids are different, and some NT kids will not be ready until they are older.

But I do think with such absorbent nappies, and busy lifestyles that parents are choosing to potty train their kids later than necessary. Which I think can actually, in some cases, be detrimental, as the child can (in some cases) become wilful, lazy, and not want to try.

I know of 4 friends currently with 2-3 year olds.

Three of them said they wanted to wait until after there summer holidays as it was easier to have them in nappies when travelling. And now, they will wait until next summer when the weather is better, and they've got more time.

The fourth friend hasn't started yet, as he's very verbal, but doesn't tell her when he has done a poo. So she feels he's not ready. On one hand I agree with her, but on the other, I think she should try, so he can focus on the sensations and understand his body.

Just to clarify, this is my situation and the friends I know, and I'm making no comment on the OP or her son :-)

In wales at least the classroom assistants lost the 'personal care' allowance a few years ago. Therefore changing dirty nappies isn't in there contract so they don't have to do it. In my area you only get the funded hours for cylchs / methrins attached to schools. These don't have the facilities to do nappy changes. Children in nappies are welcome but if they need changing the parents are called in. Until the council start paying the classroom assistant a wage which reflects their role I think it's fair enough.

No, I'm not there, snow. I'm oop north but near the border.

He doesn't know, Naty, that's the problem. Half the time he's right half the time he's wrong. He's just saying it because he doesn't want to be changed.

It's hard to explain Echolalia but basically he's just repeating phrases he's heard he doesn't necessarily understand what he's saying, iyswim. It's difficult because he remembers things in context so often the answer may seem to make sense but he's just repeating the response he heard last time he heard someone ask that question.

3 is not late. Back when DS1 was a baby, a decade ago, before I had any concept of mumsnet it was reckoned that 2y 7m was the average age of readiness and that it was later for boys.

And yes, it is often later, much later, where SN are involved. There are many children with SN who are not diagnosed until they are school age and falling further and further behind and struggling with a lot of things, not just toileting. So many children who are not reliably clean and dry at 3 do have SN, but they've not been diagnosed, yet.

I think its always been the same, except now we dont force them into pants so they can start nursery.

I remember when ds1 was at nursery (hes 19 now) lots of children had regular accidents.

I think things are better now personally, at least less dc have the embarrisment of wetting themselves in public, spending the day smelling of wee and having sore bums

Yes CSSIW covers Nurserys, play groups, child minders etc and Estyn covers schools!

Ds3 was out of nappies around 2.4, no accidents but poos took a while longer.

Like I said earlier he would not wear anything on his bottom half though until just before he turned 3. Whenever I put anything on he'd just wee in them.

I know there is a child at his nursery who is the same and his mum has to put him in pull ups. So obviously some children are just not ready by then, nothing to do with lazy parents

That's great, thank you.
I'll have a look at their site tomorrow and see if I can find their recommendations.

Tbh, I think his issues with toilet training are almost definitely related to his SN but the point is, at this current moment in time, he's still within the average age range for PTing so I don't feel that I'm asking for special attention. Just basic care.

He only turned 3yo six weeks ago. I don't think it unusual or unacceptable or lazy or ignorant or any of the other charming descriptors used, to still wear nappies at that age. It's average, it's at the top end of average but it's still average.

A pre-school should be prepared for it.