Indyref 13 - the one where people are nice to each other

[StatisticallyChallenged]

This is continuation of the previous threads. I'm hoping this can be a thread for civilised debate and discussion from people on both sides of the voting line, and where undecided voters can come and chat and get opinions.

Some of the previous threads have gone downhill. So for the sake of a good discussion can everyone please try to avoid nasty comments about the other side? References to Nazis, people being selfish, stupid, thick etc don't help anyone. This vote will be over and the votes counted in about 48 hours. After that we have to pull together whatever the outcome.

I am talking about neoliberal orthodoxy, going unchallenged. You're right in one sense though, a no vote is much, much more certain. More of this.

So you're talking about stuff which doesn't apply in Scotland?

Do you really believe that Scotland is going to be socialist? The SNP could not name one redistributory policy. They've been challenged. Repeatedly. The only tax cuts they propose benefit the wealthiest.

And no I am not saying that there is no neoliberal orthodoxy in Scotland, I mean strictly in context of the NHS.

Yes that's right, Scotland is in a wee cloth wrap that protects it entirely from the international financial system and the Tory party.

Get real. When David Cameron and "the markets" are squealing in protest, you can be pretty sure you're onto something.

And you think we're going to be protected from the markets by being independent? You think we'll be protected from the Tory party by using a currency controlled in England?

Get real yourself!

I think that the UK has gone badly astray in the last couple of generations.

So the last 40 years or so? I think a lot of fabulous things have happened in the last 40 years or so. I might not be thrilled about neoliberalism and damage to the environment either but people seem to forget or take for granted:

Greater pay equality for women, decent maternity leave, some paternity leave, minimum wage, civil partnerships, equal marriage, child benefit and child tax credits, better medical care, less industrial pollution, green energy, cleaner water, increased life expectancy, the internet, technological advances, creative industries, taking domestic violence and child abuse seriously....

I'm sure I could go on. People seem to take a lot for granted.

"of all the countries who got independence, not one has asked to reverse it" some Yes campaigner said that to me and I pointed out that it was a very silly thing to say to a German. I know the postwar split of Germany is somewhat different but when we had the chance we reunited with barely anyone being opposed to it. And I strongly believe we are a better country after the reunification than before.

Best wishes to you all from the South Pacific. Hope very much that you vote to stay, but more than that, I hope Scotland gets the best result for itself.

I hope my (minor) contributions to these threads have helped people name an informed choice one way or the other.

Spirited, decent parental leave rights, environmental policy were only adopted here because of a big kick up the backside from Europe who had been doing it for years.

And DV? The shelters are losing funding,nthe police 'lost' files on institutional child abuse involving thousands of victims.

The British systems have been very poor on human rights. Great for banks and financial sector thiugh.

morning all.
Been mostly staying out of the debates but it really saddens me to think that tomorrow we may wake up to a decision to part our ways. I'm one who thinks 'United we stand, divided we fall'.
Best wishes to all in Scotland making this difficult decision today.

Jeffrey Sachs, a brilliant economist who has worked with a number of newly indecent countries to establish their monetary systems, has spoken in a number of places about the secondary importance of Scotland's currency.

It's amazing, isn't it, how this financial markets business is a single edged sword. The markets will all implode if Scotland votes yes, these same markets that were magically saved when they imploded themselves. And these markets, which decreed that bloody RBS was too big to fail, will force a whole nation to the wall. Wake up. it's all make believe, a chimera, an utter nonsense. Look at Iceland. Look at Argentina. You think Scotland is safe hitched to the City of London? better the devil you know, eh.

Secession and the splitting apart of countries has happened all over the world. Financial armageddon has happened all over the world, brought about by the very institutions you want to cleave to. And yet contrary to the rubbish we're fed, it hasn't stopped turning yet.

I know the postwar split of Germany is somewhat different

Er, you could say that.

Well, that's my No vote cast. I have to say, the polling station was very sleepy when I arrived this morning (South Edinburgh) with a bored looking student-type holding a Yes sign and a rather smiley, jolly older gent holding a No sign, both a good distance from the entrance to the school.

I had a wee flutter of excitement at seeing a policeman turn up. Turns out he was just there to cast his vote though

All in all a very polite and civilised experience. As, of course, it should be.

Oh... and devolution of course.

Daughters Dilemma I don't think we'll be able to agree if you think everything good in Britain came from outside and everything rubbish came from within.

I look at female reproductive rights in Ireland and think that we're lucky in Britain. That doesn't mean that there aren't improvements that can be made.

But I look back to what Britain was like 40 years ago and can't agree with sweeping statements that the direction we've travelled in is the wrong one.

Yes but this is south Edinburgh, where my friend witnessed an impassioned no voter tapping a yes voter lightly on the chest with an artisan French stick.

I agree with spirited. Christ on a bike, I'd love to build a time machine and send back everybody who thinks we're going downhill. Welcome to the olden days, when things were fair and wonderful. Enjoy.

I would agree that Jeffrey Sachs would be the ideal poster boy for the yes campaign. Nina Munk after years of following him around found him an idealist who didn't take kindly to criticism.

Spent the last hour ferrying people to polling booths. Had two elderly ladies tell me they'd had yes campaigners tell them for fact that they could vote yes, and if independence didn't work we could always go back to being part of the UK. The way the yes campaign has been run at grass roots level makes me despair of the democratic process.

"I know the postwar split of Germany is somewhat different

Er, you could say that."

It is still an example of two separate countries (and believe me, East Germany felt very much like a completely different country) that have reunited, so the statement that it has never happened isn't strictly correct. Also, some splits have been rather horrific with loss of life and displacement, the India-Pakistan partition for example, that it would be very hard to imagine how those countries would get back together again. To make this argument ignores an awful lot of history.

As an English person I will be sad if Scotland decides to become independent, but I can understand their POV.

I'm sure Scotland has a viable independent future although there will be massive and unwelcome upheaval for the whole of the (current) UK in the initial period.

If it is a no vote I would still like to see a slow move to independence which would make the upheaval less painful and more stable.

England, Wales and NI could also devolve.

Morris I'm not in the naice bit of South Edinburgh sadly!

Thank god I have voted! All very quiet btw, no one outside the polling station, just posters for each side. But we are a bit arse-end of nowhere here.

The polling person who took my card asked if I wanted it back - people wanting to keep them as souvenirs.

Morris I'm having hysterics over an artisan French stick

oh dear, it's all getting too much

We have both voted... Nothing more we can do now but sit and wait

Thanks ignecoccus that's what I was trying to say way earlier. Life is what you make it.

Only border countries or those with a huge religious divide are at risk of post split turmoil, Scotland has a good number of smaller political parties and no threatening neighbours. In fact they have a choice of very good neighbours and trading partners, and supporters worldwide.

Igneococcus I think that's an interesting comparison.

What I also will be intrigued by is if there is a clear split in how areas vote, say Edinburgh, Dumfries & G and Borders clearly a No and Glasgow, Dundee, Argyll clearly a Yes.

I suppose the one thing to be grateful for is that at least this potential split is being dealt with peacefully - historically our boys would have been marching off to war.