Indyref 11. The home of good manners

[grovel]

!0,000 and counting.

I hope you don't think I'm stupid, I just have to give these things my full attention in order to make sense of them, which is why I set time aside for reading about the economic implications. Unfortunately, perhaps in this case, my strengths lie very much in other areas. :/

Arf to you too.

Numanoid - irrespective of whether you're an SNP supporter, you're voting for them to take forward an inde Scotland and lead the first Goverment. Their policies will have a massive impact on our future, both in the short and long term. Did you see Statistically's break down of the figures from 20:02?

Harry Burns: “For the comfortably off, it might seem that the decision on September 18th is easy: preserve the status quo and stay comfortable. But just how comfortable can you feel when children are the ones who suffer most from the stresses of poverty? How acceptable is it that a life on benefits seems to be the only future facing young people who have lost hope of ever getting a job? How comfortable can you feel when our health and social services, which provide a safety net for us all, and especially our elderly, are under threat? The comfortably off are misjudging the future if they think playing it safe is the way to go next week. There is no status quo in our economic future. The times are changing and the only choice is whether we want to be in control of our future or are we happy to hand it over to people who have shown they care little for the weak and the poor.

"The policies being pursued by the UK government will widen inequality in our society and more and more of the middle classes will be caught on the wrong side of the divide. Jimmy Reid’s Rectorial Address to Glasgow University students in 1971 identified alienation as the cause of social difficulties in Scotland. He defined it as “the cry of those who feel themselves the victims of blind economic forces beyond their control.” If we remain in the UK after Thursday, prepare for a growing sense of alienation.”

I'm still unsure. But I do feel that whatever economic uncertainty is ahead, at least we will be able to formulate policies which protect people who need it.
I want to know how things will get better if I vote no?

No worries Numanoid - the Yes campaign have done a good job on convincing people that they protect and will protect the NHS and that independence will free us from austerity. It really frustrates me as the chances are it simply won't be possible.

xposted - not thinking you are stupid at all Numanoid and I hope I didn't come across that way. The politicians are terrible at explaining the economics (intentionally I think) and are always shouting different numbers at each other and trying to hide the facts. It drives me crazy

x posts.

Numanoid - if you knew someone who had 30 years of specialist financial experience under their belt, who was very well thought of in their sector, who was non-political, who, along with colleagues of similar standing had been advising the SG on the establishment of the new system when Scottish tax raising powers come into being (regardless of whether or not we have an inde Scotland) - if that person said to you that the figures simply did not add up would that change your mind?

Numanoid sorry for interrupting your reading...

I don't mean to get at you but did you know that AS recently awarded a contract to give dietary advice to NHS patients to Weight Watchers? I was and to read that. An American company that sells poor quality 'diet food'.

the Yes campaign have done a good job on convincing people that they protect and will protect the NHS and that independence will free us from austerity.

But having it in the Scottish constitution seems a better option than leaving it in the hands of Westminster, whoever may be in power. Are there any guarantees that we will always have access to free healthcare in the UK? It would worry me anyway, as we'll all need to visit the GP at some time or another, but being blessed with some long-term issues, hospital visits and prescriptions are a necessity, for which I couldn't afford to pay.

I would also rather face a few years of hardship than continuing hardship under the current Government, who still have no plan to help the poorest among us, and are instead hitting us with austerity cuts. Will they ever do anything to stop benefit sanctions for ridiculous reasons, increase them so people can actually live off of them, and increase the quality of living in the UK?

I would vote no still. Isolation is a cold bed partner when you can work as a unit together to achieve so much. It's a complete move away from everything that makes humanity special, the cooperation and willingness to pull together and work together to make good things happen on everyone. And I have already posted far too much about an independent Scotland struggling to make an impact on the international stage and the dangers that could bring. A Yes vote would strangle my country and put it back years in terms of progress and development.

I like being British!

And aside from the political reasons which I sympathise with, posters such as rita rightly describing them as faceless grey men (I think?) or something like that (and it is nowhere near enough to persuade me to ditch everything and start again)! I haven't seen one good reason from a Yes voter to vote. On the contrary, I feel frightened and disturbed by what I have read.

numanoid no one has a crystal ball to see into the future. No one can provide guarantees. But there is a very high probability that staying in the UK will provide continued stability and security, whereas an independent Scotland will be plunged into volatility the like of which would be the same levels as Greece, if not worse. This the markets have predicted and they are not going to support it.

As for George Osborne's cuts, I see no reason why that wouldn't happen under an independent Scotland. The model proposed is unsustainable. Also, if we join the Euro, it could be even worse. The ECB takes no prisoners and it is always the smaller countries that suffer the most.

I would also want to see the cuts proposed in context to the spend, and where these cuts are coming from and when before making a decision. And how they impact on Scotland which already has much spending power devolved.

"the current government" - let's stay in UK and vote them out.

TheBogQueen, I can't say that things will definitely get better if we vote No. I think we will get some additional devolution - I know, politicians are full of shit and all but I think this really has gone too far for them to renege completely.

However, I do firmly believe they will get even worse for the poorest if we vote Yes.

I'm going to have a party in my head. Keep it to myself.

Me too.

TBH I just wish it was all over!!!

And austerity.

I don't see austerity in London. I see a boom. And amazing levels of investment.

Austerity is ideologically driven.

xposted - not thinking you are stupid at all Numanoid and I hope I didn't come across that way. The politicians are terrible at explaining the economics (intentionally I think) and are always shouting different numbers at each other and trying to hide the facts. It drives me crazy

No it's okay, I didn't think you were implying that, I just meant in general that I have to take time aside to read these things. It's a combination of difficulty reading numbers in the right order (thanks brain!), as in telling them apart, and not knowing much about the economy before the referendum! :)

SirChenjin I would have to take it into consideration if it happened. Honestly, I don't think it would change my mind as anything is a prediction at the moment and not a hard fact. I realise that neither side can guarantee anything. I certainly wouldn't disregard it though, so I couldn't say for certain how it would affect my thinking.

I didn't know that chocoluvva, is there a link to an article? I'm unsure about that, Weight Watchers doesn't get rave reviews, from what I hear!

chocco you are my hero I am glad you had a good day

I think I'm going to be worse off, regardless of the result of the referendum for the next few years.

In the long run, I think I'll be financially better off as part of the UK. It must be the same for most Scottish people.

I just don't understand how Scotland will pay for it all. And who suffers in those years before it all gets sorted - the very people in society this was meant to protect

London is a boom town for one section of society, that's for sure.

The Scottish NHS is already devolved. It's not under Westminster.

Re current cuts, Scotland is getting a smaller hit. The thing to note as well is that because of debt repayments and the fact that even after the cuts we still have a deficit just now, the Tories haven't actually cut spending overall. I know that seems shocking - but the overall spending is up in nominal terms and about flat in real terms. I'm no Tory, and some of their policies appall me. But the decisions we would have to make in an independent Scotland almost certainly wouldn't allow us to protect the poorest.

Really BogQueen? There's over 2.1 million Londoners (28%) living below the poverty line. Are the shiny new buildings blinding you to the sight that times are tough for a hell of a lot of people across this nation, London included?

I must say I get massively hacked off with the London's all rich and prosperous lines that get used in these threads. Yeah many are but there's many who aren't.

The costs of unwinding Scotland from rUK in there is a yes vote is going to cost billions which could be better spent on helping to continue to drag this country out of recession, including the millions of people in London who are struggling to get by.

And btw I didn't get the government I voted for like a lot of Londoners. I live in one of the areas where you could stick a Labour rosette on a pig and it would get elected.

Cambio

A quick quote from First Minister Dewar's speech to the Labour Party Conference in I think 1999.

'Then there is the puzzling case of the party's economic spokesman. Within the same week he argued that it was possible to be British, to be proud of it, yet vote against Britain for separatism. And then just as quickly changed tack, describing the Union Flag as offensive, - a relic of colonialism. They tell me he is a nice young man - he did eventually apologise - but would you put him in charge of your finances?'

Times move on a bit but it seems that many matters remain the same.

I'm having folk round for dinner on the 20th. The timing is coincidental as it was the only time everyone is free. We're all no voters so it'll either be a pity party or a sigh of relief party depending on the result. There will be fizz whatever.

I don't see austerity in London. I see a boom. And amazing levels of investment.

London is a permanent building site. And there are more people there than the whole of Scotland so of course it will have more concentrated development.

Yet even with a smaller population there is a huge amount of investment in Scotland. Multi billion pound infrastructure projects, urban regeneration. It's amazing and wonderful to see. All of this will be in jeopardy with a Yes vote. I haven't had an answer as to what would happen to EDRF money if we leave the EU, for example. Any clues?

living - I was going to post about how you say what I feel, only more articulately and with more detail, - nah, you're just a much better poster,but it seemed a bit cringey and boring for the rest of the people on this thread1

Seriously, I'm so glad I'm not the only person who feels it's somehow immature to leave the UK. That the idea of separating and then squabbling is very sad.

I will try to find a link for the WW contract.