Indyref 11. The home of good manners

[grovel]

!0,000 and counting.

I hate Alex Salmond's constant cries of 'scaremongering'. I think it smacks of wanting to silence any opposition. I do not believe that a Yes vote will mean that Westminster, the EU and NATO etc will automatically give him everything he is demanding, and I do think there would be drawbacks.

IMO the campaigns have a responsibility to point out the flaws and drawbacks in the other side's plans, as well as telling us what they will be achieving, if their campaign wins, and I think people have a right to that information, so that they can assess it for themselves, and decide whether or not it affects their decision.

Anyone who thinks that either side should keep schtumm about any potential down-sides to the other side's plans, is advocating that the Scottish public should make this irrevocable decision, based only on promises and one-sided information.

And my other thought while stuck behind 5 caravans heading back, was that if this does go to a Yes, it will be the biggest indictment of the UK political system for the last 100 years - politicians as a class will have failed everyone in the UK, for allowing this referendum to happen in the way it has, for allowing AS to set the agenda, get the right ballot question and have a free run up here for so long.

I think the only reason for paying Murdoch any attention is to mock him mercilessly. Like this. (Note to Orange Order: THIS is a parade).

(Murdoch makes his appearance after a minute)

SDTG glad to see you back.

Absolutely agree, that we haven't come up with a decent rejoinder to the constant accusation of 'scaremongering'. Project Pollyanna doesn't really cut it, altho that's sort of what it is - just keep saying it'll all be fine, fab, fair and beautiful, and people will start to believe it.

My Apologies Irn I did not intend to link you to the Isis poster.

Your posts won't change my mind but if my post can be read as linking you to the Isis poster then my post was badly worded.

went to Stirling today. Loads and Loads of 'no' signs which is interesting considering the history of that area.

Sadly every single one was vandalised.

The joke wasn't about isis, but about the atmosphere of fear that seems to have consumed the no campaign and their own promotional activity.

I posted, nothing every yes voter ever.

On reflection, given today's news, you are right. It is distasteful but you'll need to take my word when I say that was unintentional and the joke wasn't about isis.

"passing sovereignty to Brussels?"

Well, if they have to join EU on standard terms (without UK opt outs, with euro), then yes that's quite a union. The creeping loss of sovereignty is a concern to a number of EU nations, and alignment (ie having to co-ordinate budget) is a particular concern in Eurozone.

We could use "Project It's All Going to be Fine" but the poster of that name might feel a bit got at.

Freddie (sorry to hear about the caravans!) you are right.

oh and I think there was a 'yes' rally, a car convoy with 'yes' all over them, including one with a mannequin on it with what looked like a black bag over its head? Not sure who that was meant to represent but it was really poor taste.

Fortunately all it did was make people around me out themselves as 'no's. :)

Frankie I was in Stirling yesterday. Lots of no things about. All in tact.

I did get heckled by passer bys when sitting outside a bar enjoying a drink.
3 lads stood in front of me shouting no over and over again. Dh was at the bar, they scarpered when he came back out. I was quite speechless for once.

SDTG

You might be interested in Carol Craig's Guardian article.

In particular

'Its approach claims an academic pedigree, notably in the work of the American master of positive psychology, Prof Martin Seligman. But there is little in Seligman’s core work on optimism that supports their strategy. Indeed, some of his key ideas challenge the SNP’s use of optimism. And they should ring alarm bells for all of us who have a vote next week.

In his book Learned Optimism, Seligman argues that optimism has considerable benefits, for instance, in keeping us healthy or achieving sporting success. But pessimism can matter more. It keeps us alive. Seligman argues there are times when it makes sense to be optimistic and times when it is better to be pessimistic. “Ask what the cost of failure is in the particular situation,” he counsels. “If the cost of failure is high, optimism is the wrong strategy.”

Worth a read I think.

Sorry previous post should say i posted it, not every yes voter.

I do think there's a certain irony in a government supporting group demonstrating for 'freedom' while demanding journalists are sacked.

Sorry if I've missed this, but has any plan been made for the Scottish regiments of the British Army?

Latte thank you for your caravan sympathy Luckily the bairns were asleep.

A couple of things turned me to no; firstly lurking on these threads has been the single most convincing thing. Conversely reading the tweets from #voteyes has been a massive turn-off. I have digested as much of the debate as I can possibly manage and don't think now is the time for yes. It may be in the future.

I absolutely hate the assumption that as a no voter I am defeatist Tory scum and that yes has the monopoly on social justice, empathy and compassion. Bollocks to that.

I think we're suffering from an overdose of irony in every direction at the moment squoosh.

Reading

The British opt outs are as follows:

Shengen.

Euro.

Charter of Fundamental Rights (ie, human rights). The opt out ensures - to an extent - that British courts are the final determiners of English and Scots law.

Freedom, security and justice (Areas covered include the harmonisation of private international law, extradition arrangements between member state, policies on internal and external border controls, common travel visa, immigrations and asylum policies and police and judicial cooperation). This is more important than it might seem. I suspect the UK and Ireland have an opt out in part because they are predominantly common law countries.

I absolutely hate the assumption that as a no voter I am defeatist Tory scum and that yes has the monopoly on social justice, empathy and compassion. Bollocks to that.

Absolutely.

Plus I have scaremongering fatigue. I am so bloody bored of that verb being used by yes. So unimaginative. although obviously that is small in the scheme of things.

Just to add, irn didn't have any connection to the vile Isis 'joke'
That was 'lovelyrita' alone

and don't think now is the time for yes. It may be in the future.

I think many of us would agree with you cedric. Not at this point and not in this manner is my view but I don't rule it out at all at a later date.