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Indyref 11. The home of good manners

999 replies

grovel · 14/09/2014 18:37

!0,000 and counting.

OP posts:
OneNight · 15/09/2014 19:18

Indeed SirChenjin. But they can't say that because it wouldn't really exist. If the financial resources were there do you really think the wouldn't have mentioned the possibility?

At best and if questioned current separatists will defer answering by saying something along the lines of 'It'll be handled in negotiations' or 'It's all down to Westminster to respect the sovereign will of the Scottish people and give us what we're owed'. Or similar.

If there's a Yes vote there will probably be some bread and a few circuses immediately to satisfy some of the Yes voters and then a long period of complaining about Westminster while having to deal with savage and unprecedented (in modern times) austerity which will hit the poorest hardest. Prepare yourselves for that if there is a Yes vote on Thursday.

SirChenjin · 15/09/2014 19:20

Agree OneNight.

I also suspect that all economic problems in the future (if there was a Yes vote) will be put at the door of Westminster forever by the SNP. You can just hear it, can't you?

Numanoid · 15/09/2014 19:21

SirChenjin I would say 6 or 7.

SirChenjin · 15/09/2014 19:24

What details are you basing your economic arguments on to reach a 6 or 7?

flippinada · 15/09/2014 19:25

Numanoid I'm English person living in Scotland too and as I've said will be voting no, after a great deal of thought and research. I won't be deviating from that position - I do not think Scotland is in a position now to go it alone and it isn't the right decision.

I've read the white paper too and OneNight is spot on it's all written in a particular type of civil service speak which appears to promise the world but in reality promises nothing. There are lots of great ideas but it's very light on the important stuff.

I've mentioned it before but if independence is 'for the people' and it's not about the big business types and the fat cats - why are Brian Soutar and Sir Gordon Mathewson supporting it? Why is Murdoch flirting with support? A fatter bunch of felines you could not hope to find.

OneNight · 15/09/2014 19:29

In normal cirumstances SirC I would say 'Yes I can just hear it' but these are not normal times. The SNP have woken the sleeping tiger and while I can only enjoy the thought of so many more people engaged in grass root politics, it's not wise to do so quite so quickly, through massive raw emotion and on the back of promises you can't keep.

PhaedraIsMyName · 15/09/2014 19:33

Salmond has already declared there will be a day of celebration on the 19th. I know general elections can be like that but even in the worst defeat you can pick yourself up and try again.

If Yes win by a whisker calling for national celebrations is really crass. If No win I won't be celebrating , just getting back to normal.

StatisticallyChallenged · 15/09/2014 19:35

I'll breathe a sigh of relief. I won't celebrate - because my country will still have a huge rift to heal. Celebrations would be utterly crass.

SirChenjin · 15/09/2014 19:37

He hasn't Phaedra, has he? Shock

That little man is one of the most odious politicians I have ever had the misfortune to witness in my 46 years.

OneNight · 15/09/2014 19:38

My plans are fairly set. I shall work until Thursday, vote late, go to bed with some whisky and a good book when the polls close and then wake up to see what the next day will bring.

Then, I shall take a couple of days off to let my body recover and set out to investigate local political organisations. Whatever the vote, effort on all our parts will be needed I think.

grovel · 15/09/2014 19:39

Can I, in England, celebrate with a shedload of single malt in the event of a NO? I'll do it quietly.

OP posts:
Toadinthehole · 15/09/2014 19:39

Can someone explain something to me regarding the Bank of England and whole Lender of Last Resort thing (and I apologise in advance if I sound extremely dim but my brain has turned to mush reading the propaganda from both sides and being bombarded with shite on FB).

I can explain the legal side of it.

I understand that the Bank of England was nationalised in the 1940's and therefore (although it's name may suggest otherwise) is owned by England, Scotland, N.I and Wales. So it can be considered a Scottish asset.....

Probably more precise to say that it is owned by the UK state. If I were to be really technical I would say that it is owned by the Queen of the UK in her capacity as monarch. It isn't owned by the people of the UK as such, nor the constituent parts of the UK.

But if we opt for independence are we giving up this "asset" and therefore it bail us out in the event it all goes tits up ?

If iScotland were to become independent, a new state would be created. Think of a state like some kind of super-person. On independence you would have two of these people: NewState (iScotland), and OldState (rUK), which would continue in existence. As a default position, NewState would owe no debts to anyone else (the logic being that that NewState didn't take out the debts. Similarly, NewState wouldn't be party to any treaties. With assets, it's a bit more complicated. Assets owned by OldState that are part of NewState's land become NewState's. That would include buildings attached to the land. The consensus seems to be that it would include mineral resources under NewState's EEZ (that is, sea beyond a certain distance from land). Non-land assets would continue to be owned by OldState. That means any property such as shares, money lent, gold reserves, possibly leases, various goods and effects and so on.

Where does it leave the BoE? Well, the buildings are in rUK's land, so the rUK gets them. The rUK gets the BoE debt book as it's a non-land asset. I don't know how the UK state owns the BoE, but if it is by way of shares in a limited company, the rUK would get the shares too. The rUK would get the BoE's holdings in sterling.

I imagine that sterling put into circulation by the BoE constitute a debt owed by it to the holder of those notes ("I promise to pay the bearer etc). That's a liability, not an asset. And as noted above, NewState starts out with no assets.

As for the ability to issue sterling itself, this is not an asset, legally speaking. To put it another way, the money in your bank account constitutes a debt owed to you by the bank. The debt can be quantified in any currency you like. For example, when the Euro was issued, bank accounts were (I understand) redenominated in Euros. The value of the debt didn't, in theory, change.

Finally, the ability to issue currency with the status of legal tender is purely a matter for an individual state's own laws. French law, for example, will provide that the euro is legal tender there. Accordingly, as a separate state from the rUK, iScotland would not be able to oblige rUK to use the same currency as it. This is why a currency union has to be a matter of agreement.

None of the above affects private property rights. Also, there is nothing to prevent NewState and OldState entering into a treaty to vary these rights to their mutual convenience.

Again I apologise if this has been discussed/explained.

No worries. I enjoy explaining it. Hope I wasn't too longwinded.

ajandjjmum · 15/09/2014 19:41

Remember Neil Kinnock planning election celebrations as he was so confident of a win. He looked a little silly.

StatisticallyChallenged · 15/09/2014 19:42

The only thing I'm not sure about Toad is the reserves. I think they would count as a shared asset to be divided - Carney implied as much in his recent input. But our share of the reserves wouldn't be anything like what we would need.

TeamScotland · 15/09/2014 19:43

Travelling to Glasgow that day. There will be a party.

Haggis, heaps and tatties on the menu for Thursday. Freshly caught haggis of course Wink

PhaedraIsMyName · 15/09/2014 19:43

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29190302

Yes he has.

combust22 · 15/09/2014 19:45

My OH is working overnight at Ingliston in Edinburgh- HQ of the Vote counting and where the final announcement will be made. He is very excited.

WildThong · 15/09/2014 19:45

Mature team Hmm

squoosh · 15/09/2014 19:45

Haggis is the most uncelebratory meal I can think of! Could never understand why the Scots roll it out for special occasions.

I'll go for a bit of venison thanks.

Numanoid · 15/09/2014 19:46

SirChenjin I'm basing it on many arguments, although it is difficult when there is bias from each side, whilst remembering that many of the business leaders and experts questioned will be backing a No vote for their own interests (investments and such).

Osborne has promised £25 billion of additional austerity cuts next year. I ask this as a genuine question - what will people who currently can't afford to eat do then? The people who are living hand to mouth due to benefits cuts, and are having money sanctioned because they physically can't attend an interview due to disability.

My other worry is funding the NHS. It uses 40% of the block grant, so it seems the Scottish NHS would, almost inevitably, suffer cuts if a No vote prevails. Private healthcare contracts in England alone are already exceeding £10billion. It worries me as without the NHS, I and many others couldn't afford vital healthcare. I'd like to see something from the No campaign ensuring me that I will never have to worry about the NHS being privatised. If there is something like that which I have missed, could someone link it?
As in the event of a No vote, it would be a weight off my shoulders knowing the free NHS isn't in danger, as I rely on repeat prescriptions and occasional hospital visits for long-term health issues.

I'm not being confrontational with the above points, I do want to know more about how WM plan to tackle the extreme poverty we're seeing, and reassurances about the NHS.

grovel · 15/09/2014 19:46

combust22, what a great memory for your OH. Lucky man!

OP posts:
Numanoid · 15/09/2014 19:48

In the interest of fairness - the Conservatives organised a party and champagne breakfast in the event of a No vote, which also beggars belief.

SirChenjin · 15/09/2014 19:48

Oh dear God - Wee Eck is a national embarrassment. I can't wait to wave him goodbye at the next election - one way or another, he's going.

Cambiodenombre · 15/09/2014 19:49

rita sorry about your car. That behaviour is just shit. Hopefully someone saw it and help find out which imbecile did it

As for numanoids question - I would probably spoil my paper. If the economic and social rationale for independence was unquestionable I would understand why people wanted it but I don't think I could actively vote for it. I am very proud of my British identity and would be heartbroken to lose it but would not stand in the way of a positive change. I just don't believe this change will be a positive one right now

combust22 · 15/09/2014 19:49

He can't wait grovel= he even gets double time for working overnight.

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