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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Indyref8

999 replies

grovel · 09/09/2014 17:36

ItsAllGoingToBeFine, but who will be Prime Minister? Pretty unsatisfactory changing halfway through. My suggestion was that maybe Cameron, Clegg, Miliband et al agree on a team and step back themselves. It would make the end result a joint enterprise and could prevent years of feuding in rUK.

OP posts:
AnnieHoo · 11/09/2014 10:14

oddcommentator / rita.

It's true Third sector funding is volatile at the best of times and we are seeing hard times already. The third sector is central to health and social care provision in Scotland so it's crucial that our voluntary orgs and charities have the backing of big trusts to remain afloat - most of which are UK wide. That's just my feeling - I haven't seen evidence either way.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 11/09/2014 10:15

Head Office isn't completely automated - it's a source of jobs.

Quite a good article:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29151798
(Just discovered from reading it that the Chief Executive of Aberdeen Asset Management think iScotland would be a big success...)

Spiritedwolf · 11/09/2014 10:18

Someone up thread mentioned the TTIP, I don't claim to know the ins and outs of the agreement, but the SNP government have been very enthusiastic about their support for it.

My husband says that its frustrating that the UK gov hasn't been talking about an exemption for our public services, but that as its a EU/US agreement, if the France and Germany are arguing for an exemption it will apply to all EU health services etc, because its an EU wide thing, not individual states negotiating their own terms.

I'm quite thankful to our European neighbours for valuing their public services more than the UK and Scottish governments.

Which reminds me... did Alex Salmond not threaten to expel EU citizens from Scotland if the EU made it difficult for us to re-enter? Was he including rest of UK citizens in that? It would be nice if he could clarify that before any more vote. I'd like to know if my DH was going to be chucked out of the country.

BardarbungaBardarbing · 11/09/2014 10:22

I know plenty of public sector workers who are yes voters, and quite a few self employed, retired folk, lifelong SNP diehards (of course!) middle class intellectual stylee voters; but I've yet to find an engineer voting yes, but fill me in if you know some! I do find it all quite interesting.

Did anyone see the Wood Group person on the STV programme last night talking about oil reserves?

I must learn to link..

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 11/09/2014 10:23

Wolf If Scotland is not in the EU then obviously the EU arrangement re working across the EU no longer applies. It would be a right mess, as rest of EU would need to figure out what to do with Scots working/living in EU, as well as Scotland figuring out what to do.

I've no idea how this would work, I guess that international immigration rules would come into force instead

LovleyRitaMeterMaid · 11/09/2014 10:25

I know engineers voting yes.

And a shipyard worker come to think of it.

EarthWindFire · 11/09/2014 10:26

Re RBS (not sure if this has been mentioned?) CEO has clarified they are just going to move Head Office, not operations or jobs...

No one knows yet if actual jobs would be affected.

BardarbungaBardarbing · 11/09/2014 10:27

Lovely I should have said who were not nationlists before the referendum debate. Of course I know of people who would always want Independence, whatever. Sorry that wasn't at all clear.

elastamum · 11/09/2014 10:36

I think you will find that most scots will also hang onto their British passports (which they are fully entitled to do), thus allowing them to work live and travel freely across the EU - slightly ironic, but very practical.

LovleyRitaMeterMaid · 11/09/2014 10:37

So you want an in depth historic profiling? Hmm

OOAOML · 11/09/2014 10:38

You might want to look at how much corporation tax is paid by the big financial companies. They do pay it - they're not all evil money hoarders counting their stash whilst kicking a few puppies.

WildThong · 11/09/2014 10:40

Just happened upon this Herald article while reading the paper with my coffee and watching Pistorious trial
more business leaders for no

BardarbungaBardarbing · 11/09/2014 10:50

No lovely!

prettybird · 11/09/2014 10:51

I must live in a Yes voting enclave.

Thinking about my circle of friends/neighbours:

The Yes voters
Three GPs
A retired medical consultant
Two other (well-off) pensioners - not sure what they did - I think she was an accountant
A former head of Inward Investment for Glasgow (responsible for all those call centres! Wink - so knows all about the portability of jobs)
A Sales Director for an international utility firm
A Director of a Risk Management firm
A Director of an Advertising?marketing agency
A specialist in Domestic Abuse
A PhD currently working for a housing agency
Two geography teachers
An entrepreneur
A lawyer (also a major in the TA)
Two more lawyers - one private sector, one public sector
A retired podiatrist
The owner of an event security firm
Two retired university lecturers
NHS Finance manager
Two English people who moved up because they hoped that Scotland would become independent (one a small business owner, the other doing short term contracts)
An Accountant for an International media organisation
Two university lecturers
A communications professional working in the NHS
A roofing businessman
An accountant for a sporting organisation

The No voters
A SAHM, former nurse
A civil engineer
A retired financial manager
A member of the landed gentry
A catering manager
An entrepreneur (also a major in the TA)
An SNP voting fireman (to be fair, I don't know him that well, I just overheard his conversation with the podiatrist last night in the rugby club, saying he was voting No 'cos of uncertainty even though he wanted Scotland to be independent Confused)
Furniture maker
A retired radiographer
A pensioner (former primary school head teacher but a looong time ago)

Don't Know/haven't talked about it with them
Finance Director of a charity
Nurse
A high level telecoms professional
17 year old school student

All very middle class Blush (what can I say,I'm from Bearsden/Milngavie?Wink) - and all confounding the demographics that the polls are portraying (as does the street I live in: canvassers said that they had 14 Yes, 10 No and 3 Don't Know and they were only half way down the street - and hadn't even got to the villas with Yes posters) with a good mix of Yes voting pensioners

Almost all of these people have thought carefully about their voting (with the exception of the No voting pensioner, for who it was a knee jerk reaction).

It is absolutely wrong to imply - even slightly - that whichever way they vote is "immoral" - and to say voting one way is the moral choice is indeed to imply that the other way is immoral HmmAngry

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 11/09/2014 10:52

More business leader for yes (quite old article more now)..
www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/politics/referendum-news/200-businesses-sign-up-to-say-yes-to-independence.25171171

TensionWheelsCoolHeels · 11/09/2014 10:53

All this talk of banks shifting operations out of Scotland has got me wondering - are there any Scottish banks left? I mean banks where the majority of their business/customer base is in Scotland? Only one I can think of is Airdie Savings Bank. Any others?

I think whether it's yes or no, I'm looking at the actions/statements of all these large banks & thinking my custom isn't too secure to remain with them either way.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 11/09/2014 10:55

(quite old article more now)..

And heres the more...

www.businessforscotland.co.uk/another-100-employers-declare-for-yes-through-business-for-scotland/

IrnBruTheNoo · 11/09/2014 10:58

DH works in transport and he's a massive Yes supporter. DH's job won't be affected (any more than it would normally) by the prospect of independence if there's a Yes majority next week.

I worked in health care previously before being a SAHM. I'm also for independence. If I was still in paid employment, my job would be safe as well.

WildThong · 11/09/2014 10:59

itsall made a bet with myself you couldn't resist Grin
Just surprised it took you so long, you're slipping!

BardarbungaBardarbing · 11/09/2014 10:59

pretty I'm impressed at your in-depth knowledge of all these careers!Grin I have vague notions of sector but very few job titles. Guess I fail on in-depth historic profiling!Wink

prettybird · 11/09/2014 11:03

I'm not claiming to have in-depth knowledge of them all - I either used to work along side them or they are friends, family and/or close neighbours, or, in the case of the podiatrist - a "BOF" Boring Old Fart who tells everyone what he used to do Grin

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 11/09/2014 11:08

Yup.

"Angus Grossart, chairman of merchant bank Noble Grossart and one of the most influential figures in the Scottish financial establishment, said some commentary on the referendum’s market impact had been “severely overstated” and people should “stay cool and not panic”.
“I think it is getting out of hand, a severe overreaction,” he said. “The FTSE seems perfectly stable today, but to hear some of the comments you almost expect people to be predicting a plague of locusts or mice next.”

www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/764f32d4-38b0-11e4-a53b-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3D04KaKgI

chocoluvva · 11/09/2014 11:17

Nobody wants "an in-depth historic profiling" hopefully, because we are looking ahead and hopefully mature enough to put historical wrongs behind us so that we can work together.

Tt'sAll - the moral case for a no vote is that we are a small part of the uk, which (clearances and battles aside) has resulted in a prosperous, democratic nation. The island (+N.I) (and the little islands) have worked together and shared our resources - instead of competing with each other over who gets what.. Scotland is not an impoverished, oppressed nation. Until recently the standard of living has improved for the vast majority of the UK population. UK society has become more tolerant of individual differences and (rightly) passed legislation to give minority groups such as lesbian and gay adults rights, improve access for disabled people etc.

Scotland discovered oil, but a couple of decades later despite it, the standard of living seems to be going down. And there is (justifiable) unhappiness with WM policies. So instead of working to change the policies of WM and improve the lot of UK (some) Scottish people feel that Scotland can afford to go it alone and/or have a more just and fair society than we would have in UK. So they are campaigning to walk out on the UK, leaving it to pursue its unfair policies, grabbing the oil revenue and working for the perceived good of Scotland, regardless of the interests of UK.

I have just been talking to a very nice (English) lady who was leafleting my home - save the NHS in Scotland (never mind the NHS in rUK) - who told me that her reason for voting yes is to come out of the militaristic UK and make a stand against the US international policies, which UK seems to follow usually. I have the utmost respect for that. She feels that an inde Scotland would be able to set an example to UK and the rest of the world.

But I think it's better to work to have the UK behave responsibly and fairly than come out of it when the going has got tough. Partly because I don't think the actions of an independent Scotland would influence rUK. Not only that, but leaving UK would assist WM governments to pursue policies that are unpopular in scotland as the moderating effect of scottish mps in WM would be gone. And even if the removal of trident were to force unilateral disarmament, trident is just a drop in the ocean of the global nuclear weapons.

I have some sympathy for the view that a weakened UK might ultimately be a good thing internationally if it were to have less influence internationally, but who will replace it?

So I say, don't put your efforts into setting up a tiny state. Spend the time that would have gone on figuring out how to get as much as possible for Scotland through timetaking negotiations with rUK and getting into competiton with rUK - spend that time on working within the UK for the good of the UK and to influence the UK to be a good example to the rest of the world. Build on the good things we already have and work to change the unjust practices.

Mammuzza · 11/09/2014 11:17

There will be many more of this type in the next days and we will be said to be doomed, because no country ever became independent without begging to go back and no small rich country like us could ever survive on our own. Oh shucks, what was I thinking?

Which "chose independence" countries are you comparing Scotland to ?

In order to make a comparision it would have to be a country with a similarly aged union. Scotland and England have been unified for far longer that the various states that make up modern Italy and Germany have. It is a pretty old union relatively speaking. Short unions are lightly stitched in comparision with long ones, which can be very deeply entwined econmically, culturally and logistically. So which countries with a similarly long union are we talking about ?

And which of those were also tied to a "super state" union (comparable to the EU) via agreements made as part of the original union they sought to disolve ?

Of the short list that leaves, which of those achieved independence at a time of a globalised economy (leaving aside the complication of the global recession) ?

These are not trick questions. Who does that leave as comparable?

The concept that small, wealthy and sick of supporting the rest of you while you keep voting in the wrong government can and should seperate is a common conversation, regularly had, where I live in the Padana Plain.

Lombardia is the richest region of Italy. One of richer regions in Europe. The people who don't like sharing that wealth with their "feckless cousins" elsewhere (particularly the South) always assume that the act of seperation will have a netral/positive impact on said wealth. It never occurs to them that money heamoragging out of the region is the more likely outcome ten seconds after the Padana Plain declares it is going for independence. Allegedly where we live exists in a "special reality zone" where there is an iron clad assurance that Money won't do what Money tends to do. I.e. reject "suck it and see" in favour of "headless chicken panic mode" cutting losses where needs be in the name of "take flight while the going is good".

So I am asking you the same question I ask of them.

Which "small, wealthy independence success story" are you compareing yourself to? And are you sure there is enough in common to shore up expectations of similar outcomes ?