Indyref8

[grovel]

ItsAllGoingToBeFine, but who will be Prime Minister? Pretty unsatisfactory changing halfway through. My suggestion was that maybe Cameron, Clegg, Miliband et al agree on a team and step back themselves. It would make the end result a joint enterprise and could prevent years of feuding in rUK.

Yes, but that's kind of the point Weatherall. UK is still spending more than it earns. As is Scotland. People talk about the austerity cuts - which I do not in any way deny have really hurt some people. But those dreadful austerity cuts have had the effect of not really reducing total spending at all. That's what has been done to stand still

Credit Suisse are saying that to get near a CU, we'd probably have to be in a surplus in Scotland. So we would need to cut somewhere in the region of £8.6 billion pounds from our budget - we spend about £65bn at the moment. So when people talk about the Westminster austerity - just think about how bad the Scottish austerity would have to be to achieve that scale of cuts.

Sconequeen.

I'm sorry to hear of your grandfather.... my coal mining Northumberland ancestors were of course living in the lap of luxury then!!!

... enclosure throughout the Uk a century before???? The Perterloo Massacre,
I don't think that you say that the highland clearances was particularly strange and English human rites were championed.

Re Clearances. The SNP brought in a damaging Crofting Act. The SG have done nothing in the last 4 years for crofters. Any pledges on Community land reform will not be taken seriously in the H&Islands.

Phaedra - don't you dare tell me it's insulting to those who fought and struggled against apartheid . Which bit of "I am South African born and we left South Africa because of apartheid" did you not get? We left because of concern over the safety of our family. My parents couldn't/wouldn't return for many decades even for a visit for fear for their own safety. My dad had been an "agitator" at Uni and had been denounced as a "communist" by his own PIL (in South Africa anyone against the regime was suspected of being a Communist - a dangerous accusation). My cousin told me how to deal with exposure to tear gas as she'd been involved in demos where it had been employed.

I quoted Mandela cos the quote was apposite to me. I don't think he ever suggested that his thinking could only be applied within the boundaries of South Africa. I saw it yesterday on a friend's profile (who has had it for many many months and not necessarily anything to do with the referendum) and it struck a chord.

prettybird No one is questioning what your family went through in South Africa. But the relationship between Scots and English is in no way comparable to the relationship between Black SAfricans and White SAfricans.

How lucky we are to be able to have this discussion at all. My understanding of the situation in South Africa, and from pretty ird, this seems to be backed up, is that dissent was banned. Not here. You have a huge variety of freedoms - thought, speech, religious freedom, equality (.a work in progress but legally we are equally under the law).

And you want to be "free"? Try living in Saudi, or Russia and having this discussion.

Weatherall 'once the babyboomers have gone' Good lord.

How do you propose to target public provision without means testing. The tories have tried to remove some universal benefits from those more well off and there have been howls of derision.

Some of the yes voters upthread are starting to sound a bit like conspiracy theorists - I guess now if it's a no vote it will be because WM will have fixed the polls. If it's a yes vote will it be because Alex Salmond has fixed the polls? No, of course not, because he's a freedom fighter, saviour of our nation and president elect of the land of milk and honey.

I keep reading about BBC bias in favour of the no camp. I have heard people on both sides claim the BBC is biased, which to me suggests they are as unbiased as we are going to get - it was the same during the Israel/Palestine conflict - accusations of BBC bias from both sides.

I didn't. I was attacked for daring to quote Mandela. I explained why he was relevant to me. And I still think it is relevant to do so and won't apologise for it.

I think it is admirable that we are able to have this debate and that should Scotland choose independence, it has done so peacefully. That is to be applauded.

Rather than fearing the fact that so many people have been engaged in the debate and fearing a divided nation, why not celebrate the fact that so many people are engaged and passionate on both sides.

I have mentioned in RL a comparison to SA in a positive sense: the only area which voted against the change to the constitution accepted the result with good grace. The Afrikaners there were pragmatic and just got on with working with the result. I trust and hope that Scots will do the same.

Austerity wouldn't be nessecary at all if someone had the balls to collect the £150 billion in unpaid taxes.

But no, lets go after the poor instead. That's easier.

I don't want to be part of that.

Browneyedgirl why is it moronic to want to celebrate a Yes vote?

Grand theft- baby boomers are the people born between 1945-65. In 2045 most of them will have passed on, my patents are boomers so it's not something I'm 'looking forward to' but the economic reality is that the glut of pensioners who cost a disproportionate amount in public spending will will negatively effect every western economy over the next 30 years. Once this period is over we will be able to afford more public services for the whole population with the same spending. So it answers plastics question about returning to higher public sector spending after austerity.

Stat- I have said on numerous occasions that I accept and welcome cuts. What I have issue with is where WM places the burden of these cuts- namely the disabled, the unemployed and pretty much everyone who is more vulnerable for one reason or another.

I believe that an independent Scotland could make cuts in a more equitable way. Quotes few of the Tories/coalition's 'cuts'have been tax cuts for the better off.

I'm going to keep your 8.6 billion in mind and calculate what that means for people on the ground and get back to you later. (I'm back on the campaign trail this morning).

Just read this thread (I'd read the other 7, but then you might be on 18 or 20 or something and the referendum over before I posted, so I hope you'll forgive me) and want to thank the main contributors for such in depth and sensible debate :) I hope you'll excuse me for making the same point I made on the AS and AD chat thread.

The UK always gets the government it votes for. Of course this is important because it means that the UK is a democracy... but for the most part people don't think about it much. The statement doesn't mean much because the UK doesn't have one opinion. There are a lot of folk, constituencies and regions that don't get the government they vote for.

So too in Scotland, even with our form of PR.

Yesterday when I was trying to decide which of my many questions to ask AS and AD it occurred to me that the division of the Scottish electorate over the referendum make the claim that "An independent Scotland will always get the government it votes for." completely ridiculous.

After the referendum (whichever way it goes) almost half (according to the knife edge polls) of the Scottish population won't have the government/country/franchise it voted for .

Think about that. Grand talk about 'us' always getting the governments 'we' vote for requires us to always think of Scotland as a single entity at elections, it just isn't how most people experience the world or think about their politics. It's pretty meaningless (beyond it pointing out that we live in a democracy, which we do already).

And now we start to see the underlying views of the yes. The job losses are worth it (they presumably aren't affected) the businesses closed are worth it (presumably they don't have a business to run) the people who need to move for work are worth it (presumably they won't).

In parallel with a lot of nationalist movements wrapped in a flag of freedom they are ultimately aurhoritarian. Everything is worth it for the greater good.

But the problem becomes who defines the greater good.

So perhaps it would be interesting for the more vocal yes commentators to tell us all how they will personally be effected. For whom do you work? How will it be impacted by independence? Don't need the name of the employer. Just the sector.

It will help frame the debate I think as we can all see the level of "skin in the game" you have when the greater good means that along with standard life, Lloyds, tsb, BoS, RBS, Clydesdale say they are all moving in the event of a yes. Add to that BAE shipbuilding will have to move.

Me. For the record. Financial services and it will definitely move south. My house has gone on the market this week.

I'm glad the Yes supporters are being more realistic.

John Swinney on Radio Scotland just now saying that yes, there will be challenges, obstacles and difficult times ahead should there be a Yes vote.
I think this is the first time I have heard something like straight from the horses mouth delivered in such a tone, but it's almost as if recent business news has forced the admission that Scottish Utopia isn't happening anytime in the next 100 years soon.

Every penny we spend at the moment comes out of savings while we work to set up the business. Not a penny of benefits as our savings are way too high.

Of course I want Scotland to be successful.

I fully expect to be a higher rate tax payer again in the near future. If the business doesn't take off, I'll have to go back to consultancy and/or looking for a job.

John Swinney has always been saying it won't be a land of milk and honey. As has Alex Salmond and Nicolas Sturgeon and Patrick Harvey and Blair Jenkins.

Of course there will be transitional issues.

It's disingenuous to claim that they never mentioned them.

I work in the third sector, jobs and funding are volatile at the best of times.

Lovely. Thanks for your openness. But do you think your personal circumstances will be effected directly? I would have thought 3rd sector would suffer from an increase in instability but not a huge amount?

No pb I know what I've heard. I follow this closely. Land of Milk and Honey all the way. And what we are hearing now is more serious than transitional issues.

Btw, did you know you were name checked on radio 5 live yesterday? Fame at last! In the context of good questions being asked during the mumsnet web chat.

Good morning.

With the statements of yesterday by the financial providers (also John Lewis) I am feeling more hopeful that there will be a higher no vote despite the alarmingly close polls.

I had a period of wondering whether the 'yes' claims that financial providers and other employers would be unaffected by independence might be right, given the global nature of trade and electronic communications. And I did wonder if I was unnecessarily fearful for the Scottish economy in the event of independence. But the more I followed the debate, read expert comments and the white pape,r the more I worried - though the economic effects of independence are not the reason I will vote no (as detailed in several of my posts on these threads).

Hopefully undecided voters will not be convinced by the yes' campaign claims of scaremongering.

I'm a Yes.

Immediate family: runs small business. Sales and some light manufacturing, import from EU, export worldwide.
Parents/PIL (Yes) Officially retired university professors
Yes friends that I know of.: some with young children some without. Lecturers, teachers,charities, self employed
Yes neighbours that know of: Professor of Law,Paediatrician.

(hope I have not outed myself!)

Absolutely. I've secured funding for my team from children in need, big lottery and lloyds. My own post is a mish mash of funders. None of which have offered any reassurances.

Instability is the name of the game in my area. Ive been working to the wire trying to fund my own post before.

You just have to roll with it!

I didn't know - will have to listen on iPlayer. Which show was it? (I was busy yesterday after the Webchat as it was ds' birthday).

It's funny though - I too have been following this closely from the start. I think we hear what we want to hear like the John Lewis Chairman not saying that prices would rise despite the BBC reporting the contrary

My reference to Yes supporters finally admitting likely problems ahead is in relation to these threads.

The Yes campaign in the wider world has always been one of positivity. Which has caused the frustration of those less convinced of the underpinnings of an iScotland.

I doubt these threads would have gone on so long had it not been for the perpetual upbeat propaganda.