How can I ever forgive my mother in law?

[Rosebear]

Ok, this is long. And goes back over a few years. It's all re surfacing now as we are having another baby in 2 weeks.

My MIL was awful when I had my first child 5 years ago. For the last 2 weeks I've been re living the first year of my DD's life and can't stop feeling massive anger towards my MIL. I repressed my feelings back then, thought it was me being unreasonable, and now I am so angry she took advantage when I was vulnerable. Completely manipulated me as I was trying to find my feet as a new mum.

Brief history is my DH and I had a baby 18 mths after meeting. We knew we were meant for each other the day we met, and DH proposed and asked me to move in within 3 months. I chose not to move in then (felt it was too soon) but did move in when I was 3 months pregnant. We remained engaged for a few years and married after our daughter was born.

DH has a big family, 5 siblings. 2 older sisters with no children/un married/early 40's. Our daughter is the first grandchild on both sides. In my family I lost my mum to mental illness at 16 and my dad died in my 20's. I have no siblings but am close with my large extended family.

My MIL's behaviour changed when I became pregnant. It began with inviting herself to our scans and assuming she would be in the delivery room. She came to the scans and sat holding DH's hand and didn't utter a word to me. I felt like rent a womb! She knew we didn't want to find out sex but pointed to screen saying "it's definitely a boy, I can see something!".

She was not taking no for an answer on being there at the birth and DH would not stand up to her. He won't stand up to his parents, and is deeply entrenched/conditioned to his family way of life (they all overstep boundaries massively). So we agreed he would not tell her when I went into labour and only call her after baby was born. She turned up at the hospitial immediately, crying, in a state, picked up my daughter from her cot without asking me and held her, weeping, ignoring me.

I went home that night. The next day MIL was over, and spent the next few weeks crying to everyone that I was 'keeping her away from her grandchild' because we said we only wanted visitors every other day. I had a very traumatic delivery and was damaged, bleeding and all sorts. I felt scared and threatened by my MIL, she talked about my baby as though she was the mother. My MIL still visited every single day for the first week and wanted to do bedtime every night.

Over the first weeks I had massive pressure from DH's sister and father to 'give baby to MIL'. She would never communicate with me directly, and always ignored me when I talked about baby's routine or how I was doing things. She is a mother of 5 and was insulted I would even dare to tell her about my way! She wanted sleep overs at her house, first bath, bedtime bottles almost every night, just way too much for me. She wanted a baby seat in her car - where was she going to take her?! She bought all the first clothes, literally everything down to nappies and nappy cream. She chose christening outfit and first birthday outfit. I let her do all this to keep the peace. She openly disliked the name we chose for DD and refused to pronounce it properly for a few weeks. It's a very easy name to pronounce.

After a couple of months I was pressured into letting MIL look after DD once a week for the day. I never felt liked by her or accepted by her and thought if I do this maybe she will like me and we can forge a relationship. She always told me repeatedly and very loudly that she loved me like her daughter but it was odd, I never felt she was genuine.

She completely ignored my wishes for DD's care on these days - I brought her food, she binned it and made something else. Non organic, never any vegetables and loads of salt. She co slept with DD against my express wishes at nap times, took her to visit/be passed around her friends and family without asking or even telling me until after the event. She refused to let me say goodbye to DD in the mornings, always pulling her away or walking into another room telling me to 'just go, it's ok'. In the evenings when I went to collect I was put under pressure to let DD stay the night and for me to come back in the morning. I did this once, and the next day they really pressured me into leaving DD for another night. I cried the whole of the second night but felt I couldn't say no. DH, his mum, dad and sisters were all telling me I should enjoy the break and let my poor MIL have some time with her GD.

After about a year I stopped the childcare arrangements, I finally got the courage up. I suffered huge fallouts with her family after this. SIL asking why I was taking DD away from MIL etc. MIL was distraught and cried for weeks. Even though she was still seeing DD 2-3 times a week, doing her baths, dinner time, bedtime story, bottle.

I hope you're still with me ... Almost there! An ongoing problem is that my MIL never ever says 'no' to my DD. My DD could hit her or say something rude, and she says 'that's ok darling!'. I have asked my MIL repeatedly not to do this but she ignores me. DD cottoned on to GM being a soft touch when she was about 18months, and always behaves badly as soon as we are in her presence. This means I have to be really strict and really discipline DD in front of my MIL. I hate doing this because my MIL takes this to mean I don't have a positive or close relationship with my daughter. She has said this to my SIL.

So in the end, all of this history has resulted in me feeling as though I didn't and still haven't bonded well with my DD. I was so stressed and upset by all the emotional blackmail from my MIL in the first year and it still lingers on today. I feel my MIL thinks she is closer to my DD than I am. My DD flocks to her which makes me feel worse. I know this is partly because MIL never says 'no', not even to 4 bags of crisps or 10 biscuits! DD is told it's 'their little secret' and not to tell mummy.

Now I have another baby on the way and feel anxious and scared about my MIL taking advantage again when I am vulnerable post birth. Every member of DH's family believe my MIL is the best mother/GM in the world. I feel she has manipulated me, knowing there are no maternal GP's around to challenge her. If I say no to her, she cries or goes all quiet and tearfully tells me she just wants to help and loves me like a daughter.

I can see clearly what she did when I had my DD now, and I feel so much anger towards her that I don't even want her to spend any time with my DD or even cuddle my new baby.

How do I get over this? Telling her is not an option. As I've said if she is refused she cries and tells me she loves me.

I'm sorry this is the longest opening thread ever. Felt I needed to write it all down for clarity.

The ideas for big sister/mummy/ baby bonding time are lovely :) It sounds as though you have already done the hard yards of breaking away OP.

Just on the secrets thing - we have always differentiated between secrets and surprises. The children have always been taught that we don't have secrets in our family. Birthday presents, outings etc have always been referred to as surprises, so they are clear that it will eventually be discovered so isn't a secret.

Good differentiating with the secrets and surprises, I'll talk to DD about that.

I am feeling far more positive thanks to all your posts. Love bombing in full swing in our house! And I do feel better with every smile and laugh from DD.

I think I have been stuck in the 'paralysis' mentioned upthread. I have found it difficult to think about anything but this for days now. It's such a negative, nothing place to be.

What needs addressing now is counselling and DH. I've just remembered his comment a few days ago when I was talking about this. He said he just wished things were how they used to be in his family when they all got along. I said to him, was it really like that or are they just rose tinted specs? Because I remember his sister going through a period of hating their dad, and I remember they used to dread visiting their parents, so draining for them all. He replied yes but we did all get along .... I said perhaps that was because it was just you and your siblings, no in laws (me). And you all toe the line and go along with the manipulation, so of course it was harmonious on the surface.

He's almost saying it was all fine before you came along! He still doesn't comprehend that his family have created the problems and the drama. A part of him must wish I could just do whatever his mother wants no matter how detrimental to me and our child.

Might be a useful way of responding to your DD if she asks why she's seeing her grandma less, of if your MIL lays it on to her that she's desperately missing her etc.

I wouldnt validate a comment like that say she sees GM loads and GM will always think she doesnt see her enough.

My FIL takes DD to other rooms and asks her who she loves more, her mum or GP's, and he tells her she should go and live with them.

For this alone I'd stop taking DD to see them or having them over to see her.

I agree with all your conditions in your post beginning I want no direct contact with MIL or FIL on phone, email, text.

But most of all I agree with everyone else that your DH needs to man up and support you. If you go to counselling then good luck and I hope to be reading happier posts from you soon!

I can't offer any advice but you have had some fantastic posts on this thread. Did however want to offer my support, and my for you having had to suffer like this. What an awful family. Let's hope your DH steps up to the plate and shows he is worth it.

I'm another one advocating surprises over secrets. I'm sure there will be help online as to how to explain.

www.kidsafefoundation.org/a-child-who-keeps-secrets-…-an-easy-target-for-a-predator/

Best of luck, do keep us updated nosey cow here

And congratulations on baby!

If you're in the south west pm. I think I can offer you the names of a couple of fantastic councillors.

Our family have been through the mill thanks to the ils. It's not a pleasant experience. We're very lucky to have survived it together. Although by no means do I think the drama's over but with a lot of help we have both learnt to cope and disengage/say no/support each other.

Wishing your dh, dd and you all the best as you prepare for your new baby.

I want no direct contact with MIL or FIL on phone, email, text.

My DD and new baby are never to be left alone in their company unless I am there.sadly I don't trust DH with this task.

I'm glad to read this. Who cares if they tantrum, let them! Your relationship with your children is far more important.

You poor thing!! I can relate but actually your mil makes mine look amazing!!! She's a pushy nasty, manipulative cow but my god she doesn't come near yours! I could cry for you.
First off give yourself a pat on the back, haven't you been the better person in all this. And now, it's your turn to put your foot down, you've tried and failed because let's face it your mil is emotionally unhinged!
Don't allow this anymore, I'm sure you won't and I'm glad to hear you're starting to take control of things.
Just because she is your mil doesn't mean you have to keep her happy, neither you or your children are responsible for her happiness and of she thinks that's the case she is a very mentally unstable human being.
Please, enjoy your children, as a mother you can decide who they see and when with out feeling guilt, you know why because you carried them, have them life and sacrificed many things for them and you are here to protect and nourish them. Sometimes unfortunately we do have to
Protect our children from our families. Just because they are family doesn't meant they are nice people.
To the outside world your mil is a loving, doting and sacrificial grandmother to you she is a controlling, disrespectful and manipulative woman and that unfortunately for her is the opinion that matters, fuck what anyone else thinks. She needs to realise you are mum, you make decisions in the best interest of you and your family and if she wants to have a good relationship with your children she first needs to respect you.
You are a better person that most, you tried very hard to please and you know your conscience is clean. Don't allow this crazy woman to dictate your life, you will regret it.
I hope things get easier but unfortunately that heavily relies on you setting some serious boundaries and that's always difficult.
She is not right in the head.
Tell her to seek medical advise/counselling. She needs it.

My FIL takes DD to other rooms and asks her who she loves more, her mum or GP's, and he tells her she should go and live with them.

Oh yes. If they are feeding her crap like that then definitely no time alone. I was saying earlier about including it as a reward for backing you up and sticking to the new boundaries, but on that info, no way. Far too toxic.

I have called him on it and they all minimise, roll their eyes at me (!) for making a drama out of nothing. Say he is just joking, having some fun, it's harmless.

You need to communicate to them that the only way to be trusted more with DD is to stop all that crap and behave like proper Gps.

Be blunt. They will never learn else. The fall out will be bad but they will have to play by your rules if they want more contact. I agree with other pps that you have more power than you think. You have the ace up your sleeve.

Go for the counselling. Dp needs to get his head round the fact that the easy option is nowhere near best.

Thank you wicked but unfortunately we're not there. I hope we find someone good.

Considering asking my DH to read this thread.

This may have already been mentioned but "toxic on laws" by Susan forward. Worth a read.
And if/when dp is ready she has written a "toxic parents" book too.
Seriously worth a read.

"Toxic in laws" sorry constant typos on phone

It might be tempting to ask DH to read the thread but I would not.

If you do that you lose your MN lifeline on this and it's at best 50/50 if reading this would change his mind.

You ask how you can forgive her?

You dont have to forgive her. She has not asked your forgiveness, and my bet is that she wont, so this is not something you have to consider at all.

My biggest concern is that your husband seems to have no backbone but allow you to be cruelly treated, manipulated and outmanouvered in your own family. I honestly dont understand how you have stayed with him, and had another child with him, when he is not supporting you against his toxic mother.

Another poster said you will lose your daughter, and I agree. It will be your mil, and your husband, with you sidelined.

Just wanted to add that you can build up your bond with you DD. Even if it's late

You could be me. My MIL was exactly the same. I say 'was' because I haven't seen her for a year now. She totally ruined things (other things as well, long long story!)

You need to get stronger and your DH needs to grow some balls.

TBH I got to the point where I didn't give a shit if it upset her. She had her kids. These are your kids, not hers. This whole cosleeping crap etc is just way out of line. She had her turn to be mum.

Made my blood boil reading your post, honestly, know exactly how you feel!

ps I have a copy of toxic parents I am more than happy to give you for free if you pm me your address.

I don't know anything about couples counselling, but it seems to me that you need something like a mediator. So that your DH is made to focus on what you are saying and that you have a "witness" to what is agreed. Not because you can call up the counsellor in a year and complain that DH isn't fulfilling what he promised, but to make the whole conversation memorable. Also while having counselling, you can both practise what is agreed and have someone to report back to.

I married into a different culture and when dc1 came along (a girl, ILs were disappointed she wasn't a boy...) it was made crystal clear that I was irrelevant, that dd1 belonged to them. Not just them but their family: dd was their property and I was a nonevent of no relevance whatsoever: I had done my job like a surrogate (with zero status) and dd was now theirs.

I've blanked out a lot of it (and I had two MsIL ) but I do remember them going on and on about getting dd's ears pierced. Really, on and on and ON. brand new baby, ears pierced . They ('they' being both MsIL) turned on every tactic, nice to nasty, subjecting me to this relentless campaign, eventually saying they were going to do it one day when I was out. Cue dd stuck to my side for the next year and a half. I never let her out of my sight.

I'd say it is partly cultural but predominantly abuse, as they were an abusive troupe, entirely boundariless (and racist to boot ie against my culture and me). I don't think all from that culture are like this: heavyweights, bullies, controlling, invading, overpowering. I was confused because, like you, 1. I was a new mum, didn't really know what I was doing and 2. I assumed their excesses were cultural and I didn't want to offend. I had chosen to marry into that culture, I felt duty-bound to accept their culture, however outlandish it seemed to my western/British eyes sometimes. I assumed they meant well, it was just their way. I now know they didn't mean well and that they were abusive, using my efforts to be accepting as a means to overpower, dominate and insult me. As I said, I really don't think others from that culture are necessarily the same - they are just an abusive family who happen to be from that country. I didn't think I had much of a culture until they came along but, boy, did I realise I did. I was particularly incensed that they weren't even in their own country, but mine!

I am no longer married to their son thank goodness and I do think marrying across cultures can be a huge challenge; even when across European cultures, because we assume we're moreorless the same - we are not, and huge misunderstandings can arise because of the assumption that we're not that different. Your husband may look wistfully at the past - when they all 'got on' - but I do hope his eyes are opened wide when you get into therapy and he gets to see what the cost has been of 'getting on'. The good book says 'leave your mother and father and cleave to your wife' - YOU come first, you and your children, in all things .

It may be a rocky road but hold on, you know what you want, don't weaken or fall back to allowing for their culture - culture, shmulture, it's abuse plain and simple. Your dd doesn't belong to this nightmare harridan and never has, YOU'RE the mummy. Let awful woman cry and scream and stamp her foot: to no end. You will not allow her to steal your own daughter from under your nose, mind OR body. let the others in the family bleat all they like (I had this, first GC for them too ), you won't budge and you won't put up with their manipulative bellyaching: they can STFU.

Put as much distance as possible between you and them, NEVER let dd be alone with them ever again.

Sorry long post.

Dear Mr Rosebear,

Your mother is unhinged. Don't worry, lots of us have unhinged mothers and we muddle through. It's no reflection on you - it can be a bit of a shock to realise your own family's abnormal, but you soon come to see that dysfunctional families are reasonably common. It sometimes helps to talk to lots of other people about their families; helps you put it in perspective.

Your parents behaved exactly as if your child was theirs! Not in a "my home is your home" kind of way, but literally behaving as though your mum had given birth (which would mean she'd have had sex with you ) and your child's real mother was just an annoying girlfriend or something. It's beyond weird.

Please try ot get to grips with this pronto. If you want YOUR children to grow up with YOU as their father and your wife, THEIR mother, as their mother and your wife, then you're going to have to start saying No to your parents. It's that simple - and that complicated, I know, but I've done it and so have millions of other adults. "No." It's a complete sentence. It's perfectly safe to ignore all the histrionics, just keep saying No. They will begin to respect you for it. They have little respect for you now; this is how you'll earn it.

Good luck, and enjoy your babies :)

My FIL takes DD to other rooms and asks her who she loves more, her mum or GP's

Nearly threw up, what if she said she loved him more. What would he be asking her to do to prove it. Your dd should not be in 100 miles of the creep

Sorry about the 'thank goodness' comment. He was a bad egg and I was glad to get out of the marriage, aside from his horrific family.

for springydaffs, sounds awful, I hope things are much better for you now.

Thank you so much fairywhitebear, that's very kind. I am actually just reading it now on download.

Thank you too for the letter to Mr Rosebear GarlicAugustus. I am in 2 minds about sharing this with him but it is helping me massively to put things into perspective.

Springydaff thank you too. I agree. While I can see the 'matriarch' role does prevail in our culture (I am actually from the same culture but my family are more modern/normal/not stuck in the 70's/no chauvinist beliefs), it does not have to be played out as shown by my MIL.

My own GM was very much the matriarch of the family but so incredibly full of love for her whole family, DIL's and SIL's included. She was the centre of the family because she was so loved for her kindness and wisdom, not because we were forced to go along with her or be left out in the cold.

Which brings to mind, my IL's do see me as a lower class than them !! This makes me laugh. They think that because they are still able to put on a pretence of a happy family home it makes them better than me and my family. They make a lot of assumptions about my upbringing but have never actually asked me anything about it. My MIL assumed I couldn't cook, clean a house, look after my baby, all because I didn't have my mother standing over me. When they see I am completely capable they continue to tell themselves I don't have a clue because it suits them to do so. It fits nicely in with why I'm just not good enough.