AIBU to think that Islamist Extremism is on the rise in Britain as well as the rest of Europe?

[DikTrom]

In schools, local communities, pro ISIS demonstrations etc. with Muslim leaders remaining silent.

Is this something new or was it always there right under the surface?

Have we been to tolerant to people who openly reject our values and want to overthrow our society?

I've now and again been tempted to walk the streets shouting "British police, burn in hell" and I'm not even in al Muhajiroun. (I've had some bad experiences with coppers)

Seriously, al Muhajiroun are not at all representative of the Muslim community. There's a handful of them, they are fairly heavily infiltrated and they are the Pathetic Sharks of terrorism - if you actually wanted to become a terrorist, which the vast, vast majority of Muslims do not, I'd advise you to do anything rather than join al Muhajiroun or its number of fronts. They really are a lot of old bollocks and the only people who take them seriously are American conservative organisations. In number terms, it's a bit like deciding that the views of the people of Britain are represented by the Alliance for Workers' Liberty (never heard of them? You see my point ;))

I don't understand the view that an immigrant have to espouse the values of the host country. I am a British immigrant in China (I have stopped using the word 'expat' because of its colonial implications). Do I automatically have to support an authoritarian government, or can I maintain my own political beliefs while I am living here?

*has to espouse

Dik:
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10177063/Terror-police-investigating-nail-bomb-attack-at-mosque.html

You may have forgotten the nail bomb attack on a mosque in the Midlands on the day of Lee Rigby's funeral.

shocking you wrong. Dead wrong. It doesn't matter, if they are a relatively small group, it only took a hand full of hijackers to fly two planes in to the twin towers causing devastation around the world.

The spot light needs to be cast upon these people. There is point in effectively saying " oh there's no trouble over here, just a few hundred manical extremist inciting hate about the country they live in and anyone else that's differnt. Oh no ! Were all fine....ignore the silly buggers!"

Of course this isn't a reflection on all Muslims. Just the ones that want to bring death, destruction and oppression. So yes, the people that were marching in Luton do need stopping/looking at. Don't kid yourself that these people don't matter.

I think that this thread totally proves my point.

I have neither said nor suggested that all Muslims are extremists.

I have said that I think that Islamic extremism is on the rise. The fact that a considerable number of very focal Muslims are willingly bury their head in the sand,deny the facts and hence won't tackle the increase in Islamic extremism, demonstrates the problem. They have benefited from hospitality, tolerance, good education and want to push things just a bit further. More Muslim values, Muslim rules,a caliphate would be nice, a caliphate within Britain,Shariah courts in Britain. I am not imagining this, these are things Muslim groups/muslim leaders have been asking for. Clearly, many Muslims don't want this,they want to be part of British society, integrate, etc.

The question is are the majority of British/European Muslims peaceful, wanting to be or become part of Western society or keen on overthrowing Western society? If you look on Mumsnet, I would say the latter. So I can only hope that Mumsnet is not representative. On Mumsnet the majority view seems to be anything Muslims do is good or at least understandable, as they have been provoked directly or indirectly by Israel, America, the Jews, And a view that whatever they do they still hold the moral high ground. Clearly, this lack of self reflection is very unhealthy.

shocking you wrong. Dead wrong. It doesn't matter, if they are a relatively small group, it only took a hand full of hijackers to fly two planes in to the twin towers causing devastation around the world.

Sure. And how many hawks did it take to plunder and destabilize the region, making it a cauldron of anti-American/western sentiment?

It's sensible to pursue those who can reasonably be viewed as terrorists with the full weight of the law, but we can't just round up people who are angry about decades of Western policies towards the middle-east and label them as such.

On Mumsnet the majority view seems to be anything Muslims do is good or at least understandable, as they have been provoked directly or indirectly by Israel, America, the Jews

Everything Muslims do is good? Really? That's what people on Mumsnet think?

Here's what I think. It would be impossible for Islamic fundamentalism to flourish to the point of posing a threat to the West in the absence of current Israel and US foreign policy.

And, the US sending through 250M of "emergency aid" to.... Israel (!) probably hasn't helped anything.

Dik: The question is are the majority of British/European Muslims peaceful, wanting to be or become part of Western society or keen on overthrowing Western society? If you look on Mumsnet, I would say the latter.

I don't understand how you have reached that conclusion.

You are suggesting that your research on Mumsnet has led you to believe that the majority of British/ European Muslins want to overthrow Western society.

Goodness.

Hear hear crescent that was my thought as well, perhaps we are just cynical!

Again, latest posts further prove my point.

The question is are the majority of British/European Muslims peaceful, wanting to be or become part of Western society or keen on overthrowing Western society? If you look on Mumsnet, I would say the latter. So I can only hope that Mumsnet is not representative. On Mumsnet the majority view seems to be anything Muslims do is good or at least understandable, as they have been provoked directly or indirectly by Israel, America, the Jews, And a view that whatever they do they still hold the moral high ground. Clearly, this lack of self reflection is very unhealthy.

And its this type of statement that brings out the defensiveness in all right minded people, that then subsequently masks the true issues that actually are present.

I am highly critical of Islam, but I have not seen a single post by a single muslim on any thread espousing overthrowing Western society. And that's because the vast VAST majority have no desire to do so.

How have you come to this conclusion ?

Dik: Upthread you were asked to tell us what our 'values' are and you still haven't told us.

It would be impossible for Islamic fundamentalism to flourish to the point of posing a threat to the West in the absence of current Israel and US foreign policy.

What has US & Israeli foreign policy got to do with insisting girls sit at the back of the class ? ...........or that male / female University students sit in segregated areas ? ...... or that muslim girls / women cover themselves including pre-pubescent ones ? ....... or that muslim medics are allowed to opt out of examining the opposite sect ? ...... or that veiled muslim women shouldn't have to obey the norms applied to every other member of society in a British Court of Law, namely to show her face ?

MistressMia, I'm afraid I don't understand what you're suggesting here.

I understand your point totally, MistressMia.

It is, I believe, that there is a movement/there are some individuals who wish to to impose introduce fundamental beliefs and practices, as she describes, in our Western society.

Have you lived in a regime like this, LovelyBoots ? I have. Anyone who is a woman, who has daughters, is gay or is an infidel should have a view on this rise of extremist Islam and educate themselves accordingly.

No mongoose, I haven't.

If universities want to provide a separate room for Muslim students taking an exam, so be it. Are you suggesting that British, non-Muslim women are forced to take exams separately from men?

If Muslim women are permitted to not show their face in a British court of law owing to their religion, then that's wooly-headed multiculturalism.

Is there some evidence that girls are being forced to sit in the back of UK classes?

Your post is confusing in that you're co-mingling personal matters with public. Surely little girls wearing a hijab (which I find fantastically inappropriate, by the way) is not infringing upon you in any way?

This is my main concern, our highly prized and long fought-for freedoms for women, gays and atheists (as well as other religions). These are not compatible with a rise in fundamentalism which is, as far as I can observe, global.

It's good to read MistressMia's informed and considered comments. The previous generation was significantly more westernised (I know someone of my age (early 50s) who lives here precisely because she would not have any peace or freedom in her own country, and would have to cover up from head to toe. When she was growing up there she had the same freedoms as any European girl.

I think the post by Shockinglybadteacher is fairly accurate. That kind of group does not in any way represent the majority of Muslims. Yes, it is true that they should be watched and no doubt the police are watching a good number of them as they do quite like to be out and about vocalising their views. However, they have been around for a fair while, so to say extremism is on the rise is inaccurate in my opinion. Groups like that have been around for ages, maybe it just wasn't noticed by your average person.

MistressMia I am still keen to know why you are offended by the term revert and would love to know what you want those who come to Islam to be referred to as. I am unsure of your views but I am beginning to wonder if you were brought up by a Muslim family but chose later not to follow? I'm going on your last posting. Forgive me if I have misunderstood :)

"Our society is very far from perfect and some of people at the top have very questionable values"

This. I don't know about you but my ancestors were slaughtered in WW1 and WW2 (albeit on the 'winning' side) and so were millions of other Europeans/those in the colonies. Some got rich from it, fantastically so, but those who returned from the wars returned to poverty and brutal economic policies designed to enslave them and future generations. Many decided not to have the future generations, the powers that be responded to that with mass immigration and, well, here we are.

I live in a very Muslim urban area in Australia. Most of them are not extremists. some have terrible stories to tell of their suffering at the hands of extremists of other religions. Most don't though - they run small businesses, work hard jobs etc. They are good people for the most part. I'd be totally against any actions designed to specifically target them if they have committed no crime just because the powersthat be are worried about the demographic implications of their past inane policies.

"It doesn't matter, if they are a relatively small group, it only took a hand full of hijackers to fly two planes in to the twin towers causing devastation around the world."

That is a completely different situation and this is why I am saying al Muhajiroun are not a major threat. That "handful" had major financial and practical backing to carry out their acts. al Muhajiroun have not, are infiltrated and are so vocal as to be very well known. It's not the vocal people you have to worry about.

Put it this way as well. There is such a thing as the FIT - Forward Intelligence Team - if you've ever been on a demo you've seen them. They are polis who video and take pictures of activists. I sometimes reckon the FIT have more pictures of me than my mum does, although thankfully none of me naked in the bath (which my mum is fond of showing people). The FIT will also have video, pics and details of everyone who's ever attended an al Muhajiroun rally. Everyone.

If you're going to take up the armed struggle, on whatever side, don't also be an open and vocal protester and do not join a group which has been heavily infiltrated by State. This is terrorism 101 in the 21st century and it's why I'm not scared of al Muhajiroun.

I'm not saying there's no-one scary out there, just that it's not them. And also that most Muslims would in no way support their actions.