AIBU to think that Islamist Extremism is on the rise in Britain as well as the rest of Europe?

[DikTrom]

In schools, local communities, pro ISIS demonstrations etc. with Muslim leaders remaining silent.

Is this something new or was it always there right under the surface?

Have we been to tolerant to people who openly reject our values and want to overthrow our society?

I don't really mind if people cover if they want. I just suggested to my 3 sons that they wore burkas to their cinema trip which is perfectly awful I would imagine as one was embarrassed by his brother's ruck sack. His quick reposte which was probably true was that in that cinema being so dressed might make them fit in better than the apparently offending ruck sack. Laughing as I type.

The problem in Iran is that many women grew up in a free country and then had Medieval interpretations of Islam imposed on them after the revolution so it is not like in say Somalia or Saudi where all they have know is fundamentalist Islam. The change backwards is hard. (Although of course some will see it as progress and I have not problems in the UK with women or men wearing anything they like as long as I retain my freedom of speech to mock them and they to mock me).

I think if you've come from an irreligious background it is difficult to understand why people make the choices they do when they don't have to by law etc.

Before I turned my back on religion I got very into it and was absolutely convinced that I had to cover my hair. The Quran makes it very clear that it is a requirement (which is why Dr Taj won't be taken seriously by orthodox muslims) and my motivation for doing so was to obey Allah. I never got as far as actually wearing one as I kept reading on and that's when the doubts started to surface, but I was very close.

The praying including late at night and dawn, I did do though and h never felt tired. Have never seen the broken sleep have any sort of adverse effect on friends or family either so don't think ghostlands theory holds any water.

Imo if you start having religion forced on you and see abuses and barbarity being carried out by that religion e.g. as in Iran, then you start to turn against it. The fact that Iran had an extremely rich and advanced pre-Islamic civilisation also highlights to the populace the backwardness of the Islamic faith and it is therefore unsurprising that many Iranians have returned to the faith of their pre-Islamic ancestors / rejected Islam.

I've met a fair number of Saudi women too who also hold Islam in disdain and openly mock it while over here and in secret behind closed doors while there.

the praying is similar to how life would be in a convent or monastery but I find it hard to understand why a big show needs to be made of it. I admire the disciplined approach

That is a sad thing - so much that was good in the Middle East before Islam and then all that destruction of statues, ancient pictures and the like since.
I know there is a lot of debate about it. The irony is that the head covering was actually a jewish custom taken on by people near the Jews. Be Jewish and cover you could say. Be a real muslim and don't cover. www.quran-islam.org/articles/women_dress_code_%28P1150%29.html

The Koran also says men should dress modestly but of course being the sexist controllers so many of them are men don't take that bit seriously at all and in Iran I saw many many men in speedo trunks on the beach and all the women totally covered in black with face covered which really illustrated how awful all those rules which originated in the desert 2000 years ago have been misconstrued to damage women worldwide.

Why do very religious Muslim women, especially in the Middle East seem to only wear black? Surely this must make them very hot and uncomfortable. Is there a rule against wearing white or a colour that would not be so hot? Seems a bit sadistic/masochistic to me as well as the prevalence of rickets/lack of vitamin d due to being covered up.

Our aunt always wears almost totally white all the time.

I suppose its hard to tell if they are robed what colour they are wearing.

In afghanistan isn't the preferred colour sky blue?

I think it may not be preferred but imposed by the Taliban, a bit like the leader in North Korea deciding there are a limited number of hairstyles for men and women and those are the only ones they can have.

Male desert robes in Saudi were always white presumably because that deflects the sun. however there is an argument black is cooler. Black also fits with being plain and modest. Also don't smile if you are just covering the head not face, if you are in Turkey - their leaders does not like women to smile. Whereas in North Korea you must smile an awful lot when their wonderful leader is mentioned otherwise you'll be killed.

God bless English freedoms.

The Koran also says men should dress modestly but of course being the sexist controllers so many of them are men don't take that bit seriously at all and in Iran I saw many many men in speedo trunks on the beach and all the women totally covered in black with face covered which really illustrated how awful all those rules which originated in the desert 2000 years ago have been misconstrued to damage women worldwide.

I agree with Greengrow and I totally see this as the oppression of women. It baffles me that people kid themselves otherwise.

I think some muslim mothers my age who are glad they never covered are a bit disappointed their daughters have gone so much backwards over this covering issue but that is the least of the problems of the effect of extremist Islam in its violent forms on the planet.

The basics of most religions and most atheists' moral codes to be kind, do good to others and pretty good. We must not forget the good within the bad.

I suspect older generation muslims might think 'that's nice' when their kids 'find' religion (ie the boys won't be out drinking and taking drugs, girls won't be off having sex, and no-one will be gay. Oh no).

They don't always know what bile is spouted by some 'preachers' or what their kids are hearing from friends and internet-loonies.

Maybe they are naïve in thinking that their kids are sensible, will settle down with a 'naice muslim', have kids and look after them in their old age. Or maybe they have been filling their kids heads with 'everything from our culture is pretty good, but the brits are drunks, slappers and heathens'. Its the 'us and them' thing again, isn't it.

It is interesting when people are asked what their background is if they first say a) their religion, b) where their parents are from, or c) where they were born/bred. In America, most will say 'I'm an American!' and I find that a harsher country for foreigners/expats than the UK.

is it the equivalent to the lads holiday in Ibiza before they settle down. flippant commentI know it is gravely serious but that let him get it out of his system. trying to add some dark humour.

The Koran also says men should dress modestly but of course being the sexist controllers so many of them are men don't take that bit seriously at all and in Iran I saw many many men in speedo trunks on the beach and all the women totally covered in black with face covered which really illustrated how awful all those rules which originated in the desert 2000 years ago have been misconstrued to damage women worldwide.

Yes.
what are we educating in schools do they all get taught about repression? the suffragettes and so on?

it all just seems like various guises and tools to do mass repression and worse of women.

'Interesting' to read in the paper (sunday times) today the muslim woman/silly cow blogging/tweeting justifying murdering/beheading by ISIS and how shit Britain is and how she isn't coming back - hooray says I (she is/was British). How's that for womans lib?

Her english/spelling was effing awful too.

I doubt in 100% muslim state supposedly secular schools in Birmingham and the like with Muslim Governors and operation Trojan horse they spend very long in classrooms where girls are forced to sit at the back teaching about the women's rights movement even though you could take the Koran or bible and say they were a constitution for equality - the idea you cannot take a wife and then drop her and not support her but must keep supporting here even if you take a prettier younger second wife was trying to be fair in its time and Jesus' suggestions that all people whether female slave or otherwise are equal.

If there is a God she probably despairs at the inequalities she sees when she sought to impose equality of men and women.

Most of the people quoted in the press from ISIS are in no way typical of most British born muslims (or atheists for that matter).

On whether people see themselves as British or whatever, my sons are at a 75% or more non white private day school so most of their class are hindu, sikh or muslim with the occasional atheist too. I think those boys see themselves as British as indeed they are. They seem all to talk pretty sensibly about religious and race issues. My atheist son I hope is kind to others although he certainly seeks to have discussions and debates as he loves a good argument and he has a friend whose parents are Muslim and the friend is atheist. (These are teenage boys).

Some of the boys abroad fighting from the UK are not much older than they are. Some are also bright potential achievers in the UK - the medical student one etc. So the interesting so not from very poor homes with no hope. In a sense their intelligence and the natural radicalism of all young people is what has got them abroad, not their naivety. We used to praise British young people in the 1930s who went abroad to fight a just war - the Spanish Civil War. These are very interesting issues. The UK is (was?( against the Syrian regime so presumably we support people going abroad to fight against it? Yet if the young person joins say an ISIS group rather than a different type of rebel group we now call them a terrorist.

Also today's news is that the UK may be changing sides yet again - now apparently Syria could be our great friend and Iran because we now fear ISIS more. What a mess we make and if our government keeps changing its mind no wonder young people do. I suspect the Quakers may have it right - do not kill, avoid violence, do not even fight for your own country in times of war.

The Spanish civil was was different - we didn't fear those who went (that they would come back the UK threatening to kill civilians).

The Iran pallypally stuff is to do with the fact that the last president was short-sighted. The country ought to be very rich but sanctions have battered the ordinary people. Leaders know that people will only stand it for so long. It goes the way of so many revolutions. The talks in September will probably end in (some) sanctions being lifted.

Kids don't know what to think? Gloating over dead bodies/severed heads and shoving heads on spikes/crucifying people/genocide? My school wasn't exactly gentrified, but I suspect no-one left there thinking that any of this would be ok on any planet. They may go naively or not, but will fast become brutalised.

"We fear" - yes but we might fear something that won't happen for some of them. Surely it's just as risky to send our soldiers abroad (plenty of those come back with PTSD and beat up their wives and worse) or mercenaries who I don't think are illegal. They can come back here and live even that rich one from Eton who lead the coup in Equatorial new guinea.

Anyway they are interesting issues. If a UK doctor goes to help either side in Syria do we let them back? Is it the fact some of them (not all by any means) might go abroad to fight we want to be illegal and if so which countries do we decide that is fine - what about someone going to a different part of the world to fight in an arguably just war> What about a British youth going to Israel and doing their year of national service there fighting and killing? I cannot see how we are going to draw the lines if we start saying do not go abroad in any context if you will kill.

A doctor working on a battlefield isn't the same as a kid who as been given a rifle by a group (self elected, carrying out genocide, kidnapping women and children) and told to 'kill for god'. That is relatively black and white.

I worry for the mental health of both - trauma is trauma, but a doctor would have a) experience in blood and guts (no-where near battlefield) and b) wouldn't have blood 'on their hands' (assuming they were saving lives and not taking them deliberately.

There are grey areas - mercenaries, well that's a whole murky area. Soldiers sent abroad - supposedly they have support and councelling. How effective this, I don't know but I suspect it just isn't enough. Again, the kid with the gun - who will know what he's really been up to when he gets back from his 'holiday in Turkey'? He won't exactly be adding that to his CV or telling his neighbours, or his GP.

The doctor and soldier aren't feared as being potential terrorists. Yet again, the kid who has been indoctrinated to hate is a potential threat. Threats have been made to 'bring jihad to britain'. Possibly a pile of crap spouted by idiots - but idiots potentially being trained in terrorism, inciting others.

So no, we most likely can't prove that a lad has been abroad chopping heads off then sauntered back to the UK, but I don't want to live in a society where people like that live. Yes, its scary stuff.

that poor doctor got killed in Syria recently, he was brave and trying to help others and probably trying to be neutral.

the jihadis want to kill and hate others, very hard to fathom.

He was murdered by the syrian regime, I believe.

The jihadists will also merrily kill other muslims as they can justify it to themselves that 'they are shia, therefore worse than christians/jewish/converts...'. As my mum used to say 'they hate everyone who isn't them'.

It is certainly sensible to deter anyone from killing although I see the Pope has come out in support for bombing ISIS to death which is always a hard issue for religions -when is violence justified. The Quakers say never. Extreme muslims seem happy with an awful lot of it including stoning women slowly to death for adultery. Many people fall in between the two extremes and sadly in the UK most violence is by family members against other family members. Levels of violence are much less than they used to be by the way since removing lead in petrol and also Victorian London was much more dangerous than London today. I think we can be hopeful but should stay vigilant.

We also need to be very careful not to criminalise young men who have done no killing. It can be so easy to call terrorist and apply our really awful unfair and I would argue unlawful terrorism laws against people who fly to war zones to give medical aid. In fact if I had a son into that kind of thing I would seek to stop him as there is high a risk he could be branded a terrorist for going abroad simply to save Syrian children from the Syrian regime.

Going out under the flag of Red Cross/Crescent or Medecine sans frontiers would, you would hope, prepare staff for the dangers of working in was zones, and on paper give them some degree of safety.

Sadly many aid workers have been purposely targetted for being westerners, christians, spies, foreigners, women, purposely infecting children with aids, etc, so that tells you about the mentality of some people.

Until people realise that religion is not the answer - humanity is - we are stuffed.

Until people realise that religion is not the answer - humanity is - we are stuffed

I don't think they are necessarily killing for religion, I think just like the Nazi's any sort of cover for brutality, rape, repression of women and so on, attracts certain sorts, we are all capable of savagery this just gives them an excuse to do it, be in IS or ira etc.

If all relgions were banned, a whole host of other excuses would come up why people want to fight, look at nortk korea.

also people like to feel there is a purpose to us being here it comforting to have the big questons all neatly tied up, what the helll are we here for...

too big a question, much easier to give ones self purpose trhough reliogion, belong to a tribe, do ritual, its comforting.