AIBU to think that Islamist Extremism is on the rise in Britain as well as the rest of Europe?

[DikTrom]

In schools, local communities, pro ISIS demonstrations etc. with Muslim leaders remaining silent.

Is this something new or was it always there right under the surface?

Have we been to tolerant to people who openly reject our values and want to overthrow our society?

Nneoma

Why do you think the taxpayer ought to contribute to religious indoctrination of children in one religion or another?

Was the faith divide in schools helpful in integrating competing communities in NI?

Nneoma I don't think atheists are that organised, honestly, and there are all kinds of atheist from multigenerational ones to ex religious people like me, all personality types, some that are interested in humanism (just another church as far as I'm concerned) ... there isn't a movement as such. I don't think most atheists are looking to overturn anything. I am not looking forward to an "atheist" Labour gov as I don't vote Labour and wouldn't vote for a government based on the religious faith or none of its leader.

PigletJohn, NI is a little different as religion is more of a tribal identifier than anything. If your religion is being suppressed as Catholicism was/is in NI then visible adherence becomes more of a badge of honour and segregated schools are part of survival (for both communities, I would guess) Not saying this is a great thing, just giving the Irish-descent perspective with backdrop of hundreds of years of history. There is no quick British fix for NI; what's happening now seems the best approach to me. People need to get used to generations of peace.

no venom on this thread.

I think the c of e and catholic schools are excellent in our area and oversubscribed but they do take other faiths and other religions want to attend. I don't think (i hope) they indoctrinate as they want to stay on the right side of the law and be up to scrutiny.

yes they are funded by taxpayers.

I cannot comment about other faith schools.

Our children attended our community school, and then went to Qur'an classes after school, so I don't see the problem with keeping faith out of mainstream schooling. If it's your faith, then your family and your faith community should be the ones guiding you, leaving schools free to teach you RE and about other faiths and beliefs.

I'm not a fan of faith schools having attended one myself (RC) and I am not convinced they should be funded by the state. However, French schools are secular (unless you go private) and I'm not sure that there are any better relations between various faith groups in France.

Exactly Chaz. If indoctrination takes place in this so called faith school then this country would be awashed with Christians openly declaring their faith. When my DS was in a Catholic primary school, there were perhaps 4 practising Christian and a Muslim in his class. The others were without Faith and I am sure they will leave the school without any faith. Christmas was severely watered down and it was all about gifts and sharing (which in itself is fine but not what Christmas is all about from a Christian perspective). However the ethos of the school was firmly Christian and I think it's popularity in the area was due to that. So no I think the call for state funded school without the partnership of faith groups will see the values and educational standard of this country plummet even further.

I agree, Christian schools tend to have an ethos slant rather than indoctrination. usually C of E is subtle and is part of our heritage.

also whilst supporting in secondary secular school alot of students really struggled with things like the reformation, civil war catholic versus protestant because they had no concept of Christianity and how it played such a part in our history.

Whereas my experience of Catholic primary schools has been that they are very faith-based, pray four times a day, have a prayer corner in every classroom, follow a specific scheme in RE for the Catholic faith, learn about 'other faiths' for two weeks a year and that RE is a core subject that takes up the same curriculum time as science, In addition to celebrating all the main feast days.
Not saying that's a bad thing, but you couldn't begin to say that they weren't very strongly rooted in the catholic faith.

The Christian message is also not very appealing in this materialistic world. It will be very near impossible for a child to be indoctrinated if they are not also getting the Christian message at home. Being a Christian or a Muslim is not a walk in the park.

Surprisingly some Atheist children are also quite vocal too (probably picking it up from parents). At my DS new school he has being told a few times that God isn't real so children do make up their minds.

yes dc make up their own minds as it should be imo. I think that is why I find it hard to understand Islam as this is not the cass

I know about 4 Muslims who have turned away from the faith but were originally from very moderate Muslim backgrounds. They became Christians. I also know several people born into Christian homes who have left the Christian faith. They do not identify as Atheist though, so not sure what to call them.

"greengrow you support the rights for religious freedom BUT you want to abolish faith schools really?"
Yes, that is obvious to many. If you want religion you can teach it to your children out of school or pay school fees for religious teaching in schools. School funded by tax payers most of whom now in the UK don't believe in God should not be something where God is taught.

Some people obviously have a strange view of atheists. I'm an atheist, my young children are atheists. We just don't belive in god - we dont go announcing we are atheists or identify as being part of an atheist "group". Have no problem with religion as long as it is tolerant, even like going to church now and then.

Oh goodness people handing out leaflets on Oxford street to join IS?

well if you do go and join then please don't return.

sorry wasn't directed at you Jimmy

Oh goodness people handing out leaflets on Oxford street to join IS

.... so this is an interesting dilemma. How do we square freedom of religion with such actions ?

If an ideology preaches the establishment of a religious state and some of its members then subsequently establish such state (disregarding for a moment the brutality involved in its establishment and the barbarity that will continue to be meted out), how can we object to other members promoting migration to this promised land, if they are simply promoting the religious requirement to do so ?

What? Oxford street? Oh brilliant, so there going to be pitch battles on my bloody doorstep again. More violence from people who will not debate or listen to the other side.

What's the legal stance if someone goes off to Syria/Iraq to join these loons, mnages not to get him/herself killed and decides to either come running back to mummy or return to cause havoc? Can the government tell them to piss off even if they are british citizens? I suspect human rights lawyers would have a field day if this was the case, but still...

When I hear that some wannabe jihadis have been arrested up the road from me I get nervous.

God the world's a effed up mess, isn't it. I look back with nostalgia to the cold war and imminent WW3 (or so we thought).

Its not 'the promised land' though is it? Its a bunch of foreigners matching into an unstable part of the world and deciding that they can start their 'world domination' from there, thank you very much. They are inciting murder - genocide in fact. Its not religion, its revolution. I could declare myself a 'sixth fay fuckoffist' with the command that I kill all cats and people with glasses, but I suspect I won't be allowed.

They have no legitimacy. I'm sure the Koran does not say - 'march where you please, murder anyone who opposes you/you don't like the look of and plant your flag - and steal the land and all its resources'.

MistressMia, existing laws would allow the police to round up these leafletters I believe, if they can catch up with them. They would have grounds on various incitement and race hatred laws.

Nicename, MistressMia was being ironic about the promised land.

Its not 'the promised land' though is it?

But to some muslims it is.

Offensive jihad (to expand muslim borders to establish a muslim state run as a pure muslim theocracy) is deemed by many to be an obligatory religious requirement.

Notable proponents include Sayid Qutb, founder of the Muslim Brotherhood and Maulana Maududi, founder of Jamaat-e-Islami (some of who's members have spoken at the East London mosque www.eastlondonmosque.org.uk/content/faqs).

Its an established doctrine of Salafi & Wahhabi teaching, so unsurprisingly IS receive a lot of funding from the Saudis & Qataris, where these two versions of Islam have a significant following.

Granted there is a lot of debate between muslims about the legitimacy and conditions of offensive jihad, with each side using religious text to argue either for it or against it. Nonetheless though, its proponents have been able to demonstrate legitimacy through selected Quranic verses and other religious text. It's therefore no surprise that we see some muslims follow through on it.

MistressMia, existing laws would allow the police to round up these leafletters I believe, if they can catch up with them. They would have grounds on various incitement and race hatred laws.

But the leaflets at least aren't directly inciting hatred. Merely stating facts. Individual IS members may have abused on-lookers as suggested in this report: www.ibtimes.co.uk/islamic-state-invades-central-london-recruits-jihadists-oxford-circus-1460887.

However what is the crime being committed in handing out these particular leaflets ? Is it any different to the Christian evangelists in my town centre or those calling on Jews to migrate to Israel ?

so unsurprisingly IS receive a lot of funding from the Saudis & Qataris, where these two versions of Islam have a significant following

I was wondering where the hell the rest of the RICH middle east was in helping these people.

.

However what is the crime being committed in handing out these particular leaflets ?

hopefully they will find something and stop it and stamp it out.

I wonder if treason laws still exist. maybe we need stronger legislation, we are so wishy washy.

you know that spy Guy Burgess, did he have to relinquish his passport or was it his choice to remain in USA.

also aren't the parents ashamed and try to stop them going