AIBU to think that Islamist Extremism is on the rise in Britain as well as the rest of Europe?

[DikTrom]

In schools, local communities, pro ISIS demonstrations etc. with Muslim leaders remaining silent.

Is this something new or was it always there right under the surface?

Have we been to tolerant to people who openly reject our values and want to overthrow our society?

greengrow for the last time I will clarify. Everything I have written has been in response to claims you and other muslims have made about Islam. I have not attacked muslims but instead put forward an opposing view of the belief system.

As you've moved on to resorting to ad hominem attacks, I will conclude that that that is because you are struggling to defend the indefensible. That's ok. You're not the only one. All credit to you for coming back and engaging anyway.

greengrow for the last time I will clarify. Everything I have written has been in response to claims you and other muslims have made about Islam. I have not attacked muslims but instead put forward an opposing view of the belief system.

You probably meant greeneggs

Sorry yes you are right, I got my 'greens' mixed up. That was to greeneggs

ghostland: MistressMia - I am curious as to whether you have come across other openly apostate ex-Muslims (not just lapsed or secular but those who have actually left the Islamic religion) and whether you think it is quite easy to leave Islam in the UK without repercussions? I hope you don't mind me asking.

Not to my knowledge. It's not something that can be openly discussed and admitted to. Only my parents and siblings are aware of my non-belief. My sisters are non-believers but didn't come to that conclusion in any active sense, more a case of just lapsed over time. My brother is a practising muslim and doesn't enter into any discussion about my views. The topic is hidden / ignored. Its an unspoken rule that I have to actively not mention the topic so as not to influence and sway his children.

My extended family live in Pakistan. I've kept it from them to protect my mother as she would be the one who would come under attack for allowing me to become 'too westernised'. I very rarely go to Pakistan now, but if I had told my relatives and went to visit, it would not be safe to do so. Religious zealots would take the opportunity to 'restore family honour' by physically harming me. Similarly in the UK, there are extremists willing to carry out such actions, although I don't think the chances of reprisals are that high. Mostly I keep my apostasy under wraps to prevent the wider community from ostracising my parents.

MistressMia My extended family live in Pakistan. I've kept it from them to protect my mother as she would be the one who would come under attack for allowing me to become 'too westernised'. I very rarely go to Pakistan now, but if I had told my relatives and went to visit, it would not be safe to do so. Religious zealots would take the opportunity to 'restore family honour' by physically harming me. Similarly in the UK, there are extremists willing to carry out such actions, although I don't think the chances of reprisals are that high. Mostly I keep my apostasy under wraps to prevent the wider community from ostracising my parents.

Once again I duff my hat to you. Having lived in a country with 55% muslim population albeit majority in the Northern region I appreciate the weight of renouncing the faith. My younger sister worked for a year in the Northern region and says the hatred for an apostate is 100 times worse than an infidel. The brutality they suffer before death is unimaginable.

I also once worked in Wolverhampton with a girl of Pakistani origin and on our numerous walks to the train station she used to open up about life at home. She was the first girl in her family to go to university. All her sisters' husbands were brought from Pakistan. She was very cautious in what she told me. but I knew she was fighting a battle to retain some sort of self.

Please stay safe.

This is exactly why we all need to be vigilant here. In the UK it is lawful to entice people to move from their faith to atheism or anything else and to say Islam is morally wrong or God does not exist (and of course to express the contrary views and say I will rot in Hell because I have not become a born again Christian or whatever). Very early on in this thread I quoted the Wiki entry about the 13 muslim nations which do not allow muslims there to have freedom of religion and the penalty is death as we all know from the recent case in Somalia. There are no Christian nations or atheist nations where you are killed for having different views (except communism - in North Korea you cannot depart from the state's view and in China there is a death penalty and other nasty things if you encourage some people to join certain Christian churches or have views the state does not like).

I must say like most UK residents I think most religious people, Jews, Muslims and all the rest most of the time seek to do good as do any atheists. Most people are intrinsically good whether they have a religion or not. There is less violence than ever on the planet (despite the news) and a bit cause of the reduction is when we moved from lead in fuel - it has a huge effect on general violence in the UK. Sadly most violence is in the home usually when men are drunk or high so the idea that our greatest risk int he UK is a young British born Islamic bomber getting us is just wrong. However extremism is on the rise. I think that is a pity and we need to use our freedom of speech and speaking up in life when we see any rather than standing by to keep it in check.

Ah my mumsnet sisters - Nneoma and
MistressMia - my heart goes out to you. I forget the correct wording but "there is no compulsion in religion". Hmmmm.

My understanding (from relies in the ME) is that such attitudes/practices are more common in certain cultures/ countries/ areas/ within poorer and rural communities.

The revolution in Iran was brought by a foreigner (he wasn't Persian) and suported in the main by the dirt poor uneducated peasants, as so many revolutions have been.

It saddens me to see people behave in a way that would make any god weep. The poor, ignorant and greedy hide behind holy words. The case in Somalia was, I truly believe, about greed. The family wanted her money (and probably believerey were rich because her husband is a US citizen). The judge, well, draw your own conclusions (bad or mad?). Greed greed greed.

The only time I have ever heard first hand someone trying the 'they have renbounced their faith!!!' was a greedy *** trying to diddle a relative out of an inheritance. That lasted about 5 minutes, when the judge told them that trying to diddle someone out of their inheritance was a far more serious offence, had harsh punishment, and would he care to re-think his accusation?

Thanks all for your support. I have to say that I'm one of the fortunate ones. My immediate family here are not the type to physically threaten or disown me. Keeping up pretences when required to do so is not that big an issue.

I think that as the extremism grows, there will be increasing numbers of muslims who will begin to examine Islam, question it and eventually renounce their faith and start speaking out more. Having an honest discussion warts and all is an important part of that process and it's frustrating that the mainstream media is now too scared to examine Islam critically.

What has been refreshing on this thread, is to gradually see posters come out and acknowledge their reservations and questions aspects of the ideology. A few years ago that didn't really happen and as an ex-muslim I felt very alone, or even somehow that I had got it wrong.

It will be discourse from free and open societies filtering back to closed ones that will bring about change. I guess that's why Islam is so anti open debate, scrutiny and criticism, shutting it down with cries of Islamophobia and threats of violence. We all need to unite against that and defy it and not appease or side with certain ideologies, simply because we think that to do so may be construed as being racist.

It's fascinating because huge numbers of originally Chrsitian British people become atheists every day and are proud of that and open about it. More people now don't believe in God in the UK than do. You don't so often hear of Muslims doing the same in the UK and yet they are British the same as the rest of us and just as free in law to express views. It is just that their relatives are more likely to be critical than in most Christian homes I suppose. Vast numbers of jews now "marry out" too so that community is very used to atheism and those just abandoning their faith there.

I am not sure atheism is the safe alternative greengrow. Muslims just need to start to open up to debate and reform some of their practices. After all secular society and the rise of atheism is what has led to the confusion this country is now faced with. The throwing away of the Christian values that has created a vacuum which other religions will try to fill.

Even reading your posts I do not understand what you want, one minute you want people to be atheist the next sentence you write religious people should be free to go about their daily lives as far as they do not threaten violence. Is such confusion that has led to the present problem in this country. Tying your self in knots about freedoms and liberalism.

"After all secular society and the rise of atheism is what has led to the confusion this country is now faced with. The throwing away of the Christian values that has created a vacuum which other religions will try to fill."

But that sounds like you think atheists aren't moral or have values. I don't think atheists here do throw away Christian values - they still keep the "Christian" values they agree with like being kind and doing to others as you would like others to do unto you etc. They just don't believe in god.

It sounds to me that Greengrow wants everyone to adopt HER way of thinking. Extremist?

Really Migsy have you actually read all her posts?

Bambambini But that sounds like you think atheists aren't moral or have values. I don't think atheists here do throw away Christian values - they still keep the "Christian" values they agree with like being kind and doing to others as you would like others to do unto you etc. They just don't believe in god.

Interesting you say that. I think atheist believes are not rooted in anything so it is open to anything. For all its hatred for organised religion (Christianity being its number one enemy) it has given Islam a great respect almost to the point of fear. I really wait to see how further this country will descend when the atheist labour government comes in to power next year.

Let us see it polygamy will be legal as I think they have an agenda to dismantle the nuclear family. It will be interesting at the same time frightening.

no knots at all. I want people to have freedom of speech and I want the right to convert those who believe in a God to atheism. That is a very clear message. It is about freedom and tolerance.

It is the same as feminism. I want women to have equal rights in the kaw and fairness and fewer gender divides at home but I do not want a North Korean state where I enter their homes and prohibit women from washing up and ensure they leave it all to men.

It is a secular tolerance but with free speech.

As I say most people in the UK now do not believe in God so gradually we are getting there. It is all fine except it is the extremist bits of most religions which are making greatest headway as the moderate C of E withers on a vine, even in Christianity not because there is a void, but because people can be fools and are very malleable. We all know religion is the opium of the people and a useful tool to con and persuade them to do various things.

I think my dad was an athiest. Mum used to kindly say that he was agnostic. He didn't hate religion, but I suspect as sonmeone who was very maths/science focused, he probably wasn't keen on things that weren't tangible. I suspect he remained to be convinced. He would have nice chats with the vicar about religion, history, literature, travel...

My dad was the kindest, most intelligent and generous person. Deeply into social justice and a hard worker. He was very moral and hated injustice. He respected the church yet questioned it out of genuine interest.

nicename My dad was the kindest, most intelligent and generous person. Deeply into social justice and a hard worker. He was very moral and hated injustice. He respected the church yet questioned it out of genuine interest.

Well sadly the tide is changing fast and atheist will become increasingly less tolerant, but towards Christianity. It will use Islam and any other 'fashionable' religion to help with the fight to dismantle the church, But all it is doing is merely cutting its nose to spite its face.

There really is no turning back especially with a labour government - this particular bunch.

Having an honest discussion warts and all is an important part of that process and it's frustrating that the mainstream media is now too scared to examine Islam critically.

Thank goodness for Dr Taj showing people we can talk about it and there is another way.

CharlieSierra Actually, yes. I really actually have.

There is an odd and unpleasant view of atheism and atheists being put forward as fact here by a pp. Values often claimed as those promulgated by religion are human values, just as evils done in the name of religion are human evils. We may not all share religion, but we all share our humanity. There are as many diverse views in atheism as there are, for example in Christianity - the latter currenly encompasses the vile views of the leader of the Westbroro Baptist Church and those of the glorious and wonderfully admirable Desmond Tutu.

nicename your dad sounds lovely and like an agnostic. he showed respect and tolerance but some atheists are so venomous about the Christian faith when it isn't always necessary.

spot on about marginalising christianity possibly by attacking Islam.

I think people in the Uk do believe in God and faith not christianity necessarily.

in countries where it is not tolerated christianity goes underground e.g. China or communist Russia.

Personally, I support the right of anyone to believe in whatever they want or to or have no religious or spiritual beliefs at all. What disturbs me is when those beliefs lead to actions which are incompatible with human rights, equal rights, UK law or British values.

No atheists on this thread have shown any venom about the Christian or any other faith.
If someone believes in their religions and thinks it is right they should welcome those who say God does not exist as it gives them the chance to prove they are right and how strong and good their religion is.

I would certainly take religion out of all state schools and take all state funding from C of E, RC and other state schools but other than that I would leave religious people free to worship as they want as long as it does not stop freedom of speech of others or right to wear what we like, rights of gays etc.
I agree with Migsy - " I support the right of anyone to believe in whatever they want or to or have no religious or spiritual beliefs at all. What disturbs me is when those beliefs lead to actions which are incompatible with human rights, equal rights, UK law or British values."

You are doing the yes but again greengrow you support the rights for religious freedom BUT you want to abolish faith schools really?