AIBU to think that Islamist Extremism is on the rise in Britain as well as the rest of Europe?

[DikTrom]

In schools, local communities, pro ISIS demonstrations etc. with Muslim leaders remaining silent.

Is this something new or was it always there right under the surface?

Have we been to tolerant to people who openly reject our values and want to overthrow our society?

We're trying to cope with those medieval values and actions according to our modern mindset and the two aren't compatible. This is why people under estimate the threat and find it difficult to comprehend the levels and type of violence.

This is why people struggle to assert that only certain types of Islam behave this way and that is not what the religion really teaches, when, in fact, it's the other way around. This is what the religion teaches, but those parts are ignored or sanitised by its followers.

Just as some Christians pick and choose which parts of The Bible they follow, Muslims will be the same.

Christianity has largely become modern and sanitised and even the most ardent adherents are merely seen as eccentric and quaint or ignorant and easy to ignore. They have a little political power, but are easy to deal with and over rule.

Read Hannah Shah's account of her life in her book The Imam's Daughter and it gives a good insight into the Islamic mindset. She later went on to study theology at Lancaster university and details how her fellow Muslim students hadn't even been permitted to read The Koran in English, so weren't aware of the true content. Just as Catholics had to follow their religion in a foreign language (Latin), Muslims have to follow theirs in Arabic which many don't understand. It's left up to the imams to interpret the religion's teaching for them.

I'd hate to live in a country run by fundamentalist Christians, in power, dictating the laws according to their interpretation of their faith.
I wonder how many Catholics would choose to be forced to follow every rule and restriction dictated by a strict interpretation of the faith completely. If the usual pick and mix response was removed.

I think state and religion should be separate.

However that will not help anyone in a country where historically/culturally women/children are treated as goods and chattel, or where 'justice' is when a gang of corrupt old men decide that a woman is to be gang raped because of some 'crime' committed by another member of the family.

Yes, all religions have a pick and mix aspect.

I too would hate to live under a medieval Catholic rule. It would be terrifying.

Religions can contribute positively, but many religious aspects and beliefs are positively damaging.

Religions are man made and man is just another beast in the field as far as I can see.

If there is a God, I doubt very much whether He'd want to have anything to do to with any of the religions mankind has created in His name.

If I were God, I think I'd have stepped in by now and smote/smit/smited anyone doing anything 'in my name'.

MistressMia I have so much respect for your honesty. I think you sum Islam perfectly. I originate from one of the countries you listed above. The country itself is not fully Islamic - the northern region is perhaps 80% Muslim and the southern region 30%. The Muslims in the South are truly progressive and so different to the Muslims in the northern part that is now suffering under boko haram. Maybe because the south is heavily Christian and very progressive.
They passed a similar law 2yrs ago as Yemen and it was quite telling all the northern state governors voted for child bride/marriage. It was truly shocking. Funny enough the rulers and Islamic leaders do not sell (they call it betroth) their daughters only the poor people. And the number of girls/babies with VVF is outstanding. Truly shocking!!!

Sorry outstanding is not the descriptive word for what I meant. The numbers of girls/ babies with VVF is disgustingly high - about 12000 a year.

I have learned so much too from MistressMia's posts.

I believe that those of us who have experienced first-hand these fundamentalist regimes, known the fear and silence and invisibility of being a woman; the lack of rights and protection; the hostility received by dint of being an infidel, are aware of the difference.

The difference between the luxury of 'choosing' to cover, to submit, to obey, in a country which recognises your rights as a human and as a woman. The rights if our daughters to be educated and have a career. To marry or not as they wish. The rights for which, all hyperbole aside, women have died to ensure.

We know how it feels to live in a regime that will never accord those rights based on our genitals.

I worry so much about the incompatibility of fundamental Islam with western liberal values so eloquently described on this thread.

We all need to understand what it could mean for us and our daughters.

To call such a debate 'racist' as happens often, even on this thread, is facile and dangerous, disingenuous and ignorant.

The point about it being a choice is that you can unchoose without consequences that threaten your human rights.
If Muslims who choose to cover in this country, (or others that agree similar liberties for their citizens) choose not to cover, there is no backlash from the authorities. No punishment. That's what a free choice is,

It is not compatible the way it is currently practiced and how extremely liberal the uk is. I think there is a clash.

Anyone who tries to say otherwise is simply trying to appease and manage the situation as it is. I really fear for when/if a labour govt comes in next year because they are responsible for some of the breakdown in communities that we are experiencing today.

Greeneggs You have to be covered in front of non male relatives No you don't.

We all need to understand what it could mean for us and our daughters. To call such a debate 'racist' as happens often, even on this thread, is facile and dangerous, disingenuous and ignorant indeed!

We should all be deeply concerned and engaged with this - what I can't understand is the attitude of the Muslim women here - why aren't you at the forefront of the campaign for change? Several times you have been asked how you reconcile the incompatibility of your belief system with western values - no replies. It's a genuine question.

Oh, and to whoever it was upthread who simply couldn't understand how the term 'revert' could be construed as being offensive - don't be disingenuous, it is deeply offensive to those of other faiths or none.

I really fear for when/if a labour govt comes in next year because they are responsible for some of the breakdown in communities that we are experiencing today.

I agree.

link explaining how Islam means submission

This might explain why Muslim women don't speak out against that which we see as oppression.

Wow, even though I said I don't wish to contribute to this thread further I look and see that I am having lots of stuff thrown at me. Mistress Mia, please stop posting lots of stuff aimed at me. I do not wish to reply to you, so it seems a little pointless and unfair. Why don't you just start up a new thread called something like 'I hate Musilms and you should too...'

Sorry Charlie, I meant to type men who aren't related, I just got my words mixed up. Probably typing too fast.

Someone said earlier that Athiests should tolerate Muslims so long as they can convince them to leave their religion (or words to that effect). Emm... what?? So basically you are happy to convince people to leave their religion to join a set of beliefs... because you think you are correct. I have never tried to convince anyone to leave their set of beliefs. I would just hope that if someone sees me going about my everyday life they would think I was a decent person who also happens to be Muslim.

One last thing, as for all the atrocities around the world I am as horrified as the rest of you. I think there are an awful lot of bad 'Muslims' out there, probably the majority of whom are men. I would gladly kick the backside of the 'Imam' who did those things to his daughter ( the book that someone mentioned earlier). However, I don't believe its the fault of the religion. I think its the fault of those not following it properly. I just wish everyone would live in peace. Please leave me in peace now and don't continue to tell me how totally wrong I am. Thank you.

It is normal to be defensive. However I get the sense that some Muslim women enjoy the 'protections' Islam gives them.. Not to be compelled to work, not to be financially responsible for the family, if she works to keep whatever she earns etc

I agree we should leave green alone, she has replied to people wanting to know how a Muslim woman feels and she has done this.

Thanks green for your in put....

Why don't you just start up a new thread called something like 'I hate Musilms and you should too...'

Thats really un fair, Mistress has been amazing and posted some challenging and eye opening information.

Saying anyone hates muslims because they disagree with aspects of the faith is not on.

greeneggs, what is your view on homosexuality and the punishment for homosexuals in Islam?

Oh leave the poor woman alone, she has answered people....

I tink on the whole it has been a very good and very constructive thread before of replies from all sides - atheists and muslim women and others.

My point that "Athiests should tolerate Muslims so long as they can convince them to leave their religion" was just about freedom of speech.
The point was very important however. I am happy to live with people of other faiths as long as my freedom of speech and theirs is not fettered one iota. I want the right to seek to ensure all muslim girls are exposed to atheist feminism so they can make up their own minds. The other right which goes with that is that those religions who seek to convert others (there is a huge growth in "born again Christians" all over the world including in China who are although not in a violent sense fundamentalists).

My piont was that yes I can live amongst people whose views I deplore but I will not tolerate that if the result is that I lose my Western liberal freedoms to call them whatever I choose. They and I shiould be free to draw cartoons or write whatever words we choose about each other. If that is incompatible with the religions then the religions have to go not Western freedom of speech. However very few religious people in the UK want to curb my freedom of speech so there is no problem.

In Saudi there is a movement to remove women. So if a woman has invented or achieved something the movement ensures she is never mentioned or talked about - it is a kind of blanking out of women's achievements, a nullifying of the as it they do not exist. I was talking to a lawyer who had been working on a Saudi big contract deal recently - she was Westernised, not covered etc and she refused to allow the transaction with 20 participants to complete in Saudi because she would not be allowed to be credited with her deal and be forced to cover up. They all completed in Switzerland instead and good for her for making her own stand.

"So basically you are happy to convince people to leave their religion to join a set of beliefs... because you think you are correct."

Yes and indeed at the heart of many religions there is a religious obligation to convert others actually so the fact an atheist wants to do it should not be that unusual. It is only through example and learning about other paths that we can find the right path. The big issue is that some interpretation of islam and other religions would prevent people like I am from expressing our contrary views and we must all fight against the kind of censorship. Just because someone might bomb us if we say X does not mean we should not say X. If people get upset over some silly cartoon they need therapy not censorship of the material which hurt their precious little feelings.

well said Green

Greengrow, do you know Jaclyn Glenn on youtube? She is an Atheist youtuber and her videos are really interesting. She's also got balls of steel.

greeneggs i knew you meant male non relatives

that's what I answered - you don't