AIBU to think that Islamist Extremism is on the rise in Britain as well as the rest of Europe?

[DikTrom]

In schools, local communities, pro ISIS demonstrations etc. with Muslim leaders remaining silent.

Is this something new or was it always there right under the surface?

Have we been to tolerant to people who openly reject our values and want to overthrow our society?

If they are inviting support for a proscribed organisation then that is a criminal offence.

ISIL, ISI, ISIS etc are proscribed since June 2014.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/proscribed-terror-groups-or-organisations--2

I don't see that they have committed treason in this particular instance. IS supporters are not fighting against the British state (yet).

also aren't the parents ashamed and try to stop them going .. many parents are ashamed and sick with worry, but how can you physically stop an adult or young person from something like this ?

You could, if you could argue ideologically against their ideas. The problem is the younger generation are actually much much more versed and educated about Islamic doctrine then their parents. The confusion and befuddlement about 'such actions being against Islam' arises from this very ignorance.

The older generations have no idea such things are stated or interpreted in such a way and their children therefore run rings around them using Islamic texts to support their stance. There's actually a fair number of second and third generation muslims who regard their own parents as heretics !

The Terrorism Act 2000 may well cover this but whether or not its appropriate to enforce it is another question. The people who are out on the streets may not be the ones that the authorities are worried about. A few loud mouths handing out leaflets on Oxford Street are easy to monitor. The bigger issue is what is happening behind closed doors.

If they are inviting support for a proscribed organisation then that is a criminal offence.

Aah, but the leaflets are not saying support IS, the group, but that an Islamic State (Caliphate) has been established and to support the leader of this Islamic state, the Caliph. I'm not a lawyer, but to me that looks like it's different from encouraging people to directly support a proscribed terror group.

What's happening behind closed doors is exactly what we see on the streets, but far more virulently ...... which brings me back to my question of freedom of religion. If this is their belief, then freedom of religion has to allow it ?

Freedom of belief - so I can believe that XXX people are less than human and should be rounded up, put in ghettoes and killed, and that 'my God' says so.

Hmmmmm, free speech, freedom of belief, free to act on my beliefs or encourage others?

Freedom of Religion is not an absolute - you can't impinge on the rights of others.

Article 9.2 ECHR
"Freeedom to manifest one's religion or beliefts shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others."

Some people believe that members of inferior religions should be rounded up, dispossessed of their homes and land, and put in Gaza

Remind me again, wasn't that after the 6 day war when members of that same religion had attempted to wipe Israel off the map?
What's happening in Gaza at the moment is a human rights catastrophe, but the origins aren't as simplistic as you are making out PigletJohn. Otherwise wouldn't there be threads worrying about the rise of Judaism and their attitude towards members of other faiths?

the jewish people aren't forcing others to take their religion or executing Jewish people who leave their faith. They have a historical link to Israel and after Hitler, somewhere safe.

these people seem to have a mediavel mindset, they seem like a larger version of the Taliban

I also think that what's happening across the world to oppressed and powerless minorities who are being targeted by the powerful just underlines one of the basic beliefs that went into the creation of modern Israel.
That you are on your own, that there is no one coming to rescue you, that you can only rely on yourselves and others in the same predicament. That promises are rarely kept and that you can't trust or believe in world politics.
That the world will stand by and tut whilst you are trapped on a mountain, kidnapped by militants, run off your land, mutilated and executed. All over the world.
Who knows what the situation in Palestine would have been like now, if Israel had been accepted when it was first created, and if the UN hadn't then focused on what sort of sane and humane compromises were possible within that?

There are some pretty awful terrorism laws which many many British people strongly opposed and are very similar to totalitarian state rules in North Korea and Saudi. I would not stop anyone handing out leaflets whether the leaflets say fight for Isis, fight against the Syrian regime, fight for Israel, that the holocaust did not happen, that women are so sinful they should be eradicated or anything else. If people have a problem with reading leaflets they need therapy not laws to protect their feelings.

This is the freedom point - in the UK we allow different views. Obviously a line is drawn when people plan bombs here but to penalise people's thoughts or views is the start of a move towards allowing only one view in the UK and I would never support that.

DownByTheRiverside Thu 14-Aug-14 12:55:36
Remind me again, wasn't that after the 6 day war when members of that same religion had attempted to wipe Israel off the map

No, it started in 1948,long before; and it continues today, long after.

Thank you for the opportunity to help your faulty memory.

this sort of situation reminds me of cults who brainwash people particularly the young. very worrying

So what happened to the stated intentions of the Balfour Declaration in 1917?

I recently saw a programme about the Islamic extremists get recruited in prisons. So they're not new to the world of violence and crime.

these people seem to have a medieval mindset, they seem like a larger version of the Taliban

Even Al Queda have reportedly rejected or distanced themselves from them.

Worryingly, you will often see reported, (eg, the 'cash in her pants' case) that the person (man) in question had had a history of violence, drugs, crime, or in the case of the Australian with the two small boys photographed holding up a severed head, who was diagnosed as having mental health problems.

So the scallies and the ill. Great recruiting techniques.

Just on BBC News:
Extremist group leaflets handed out in London's West End13 August 2014 Last updated at 20:13 BST

Scotland Yard is examining whether leaflets that were handed out in the West End encouraging British Muslims to join an extremist group are in breach of anti-terror laws.

The leaflets are believed to have been distributed by radical students looking to gain support for the Islamic State, formerly known as ISIS, which is fighting a brutal war to control areas of Syria and Iraq.

BBC London's Rebecca Williams spoke to Farah Souhail who fled Iraq, Ghaffar Hussain from the Quilliam Foundation and radical cleric Anjem Choudary.

Even Al Queda have reportedly rejected or distanced themselves from them

...not for the reasons you think. The split occurred due to a power struggle between the two when ISIS defied Al-Qaeda centrals instructions to let another jihadi group operate in the area ISIS were in. Having said that AQ are slightly more aware of the propaganda war and did issue instructions to kill fewer civilians !

DownByTheRiversideThu 14-Aug-14 13:34:19

"I also think that what's happening across the world to oppressed and powerless minorities who are being targeted by the powerful just underlines one of the basic beliefs that went into the creation of modern srael.That you are on your own, that there is no one coming to rescue you, that you can only rely on yourselves and others in the same predicament. That promises are rarely kept and that you can't trust or believe in world politics.That the world will stand by and tut whilst you are trapped on a mountain, kidnapped by militants, run off your land, mutilated and executed. All over the world."

Actually, I think this describes the Israeli mentality in a nutshell. I think people sitting discussing the issue during dinner in safe old tolerant Uk probably never really have to truly worry about those thoughts and feelings. I also wonder how israel/Palestine would have progressed if they hadn't went to war.

'Fewer'. That's ok then. I assune AQ use them to do some 'dirty work' when it sites them (for money/land etc).

yes they seem quite thuggish. are they Al-Queda's lackeys.

Al-Q and IS are fighting towards the same goals: to establish an Islamic Caliphate that spans the globe. IS started off as an Al-Q branch, Al-Qaeda in Iraq. Like any organisation, internal power struggles caused a rupture and now IS is a separate movement who have declared themselves rather than AQ to be the leaders of this global jihad.

Undoubtedly in time we will see another splinter group oust IS and so it will continue.

They really need to get themselves a hobby and take up golf or such.

Or suicide (without taking anyone else with then).