AIBU, to be concerned about increasing anti-semitism throughout Europe

[DikTrom]

Yesterday's Sunday Times had a number of articles about increased anti-semitism in the UK. Same is happening in the Netherlands and even more so in France and Germany.

I'm not suggesting any shit at all JFR. Don't be so knee-jerk. And why are you "disappointed" in me? For all you know I could be a raving fascist anti-semite.

I'd be really disappointed then!

Ok, please explain the elephant in the room - I must have misunderstood.

I roundly condemn the actions of Israel and of Hamas . It does not justify anti Semitic or anti Islamic behaviour in any way though

My comment was:

"It is very concerning" - that lays my cards on the table don't you think? I am extremely worried about increased anti-semitism in the UK and across Europe, and indeed the seemingly inexorable rise of far right feeling.

However, is it increasing in a bubble? Could it be that the thugs and bigots who love any excuse to demonise a section of the population are using the current Israeli activity in Gaza as a justification for their views?

Disappointed that you need it all spelled out for you.

I do. I clearly have spent too long on the other threads where generalising, demonising and some outright anti semitism is going on.

I agree with how you put it here.

I am no longer disappointed in you minty, you will be happy and relieved to know you have restored my faith in you.
.

I would say it's not just thugs and bigots though, it's loads and loads of really thick people who social media gives a voice and community that they wouldn't otherwise have.

Part of the difficulty people have with separating Zionism from Judaism is that, for a long time now, any criticism of Isreal has been conflated by Her supporters as antisemitism.

The violence on all sides disgusts me. Some of us do protest against the killing of innocents by whomever. It just doesn't make the papers, because Islamophobia seems to be ok with a lot of people. What ISIS, Boko Haram et all are doing is evil. Racists entering Mosques and intimidating elderly men in the UK is evil. Antisemitism is evil.

YANBU to be worried about increasing hatred of 'othered' groups throughout Europe, whether they be Jews, Muslims, Roma or whatever.

Well, it is chicken and egg isn't it. Some (by no means all) of the criticism of Israel has been (And still is) Anti-Semitism.

Mumblepot clearly no idea of the murderous attacks on over 1000 Palestinians by the Muslim state of Syria in the last few months. She either doesn't know or perhaps she doesn't care because it hasn't been done by the 'Jewish state of Israel'.

I don't think for many its even a problem of understanding the difference between anti-zionism and anti-semitism, I think it's just old fashioned anti-semitism, always there, but given a fresh new make-over.

CaptChaos excellent post.

I have said this on another thread, so apologies to those of you reading this twice. I had a conversation with DH over the weekend about when we run and where to. Not a conversation I ever expected to have. Nothing was resolved.

if I am honest, a small part of the reason that we had that conversation was because of some of the threads I've read on here. I feel utterly terrified and that is the truth.

Really interesting article here about the way a lot of left-wing thought has historically also been anti-Semitic.

I was surprised by some of the references, for example even the father of Communism himself, Karl Marx (himself Jewish), writing "The essence of Judaism and the root of the Jewish soul is expediency and self-interest; the God of Israel is Mammon, who expresses himself in the lust for money. Judaism is the embodiment of anti-social attitudes."

No JohnFarleysRuskin I disagree. It has been impossible to have any sort of reasoned discussion whereby the actions of Israel as a country are criticized, without their being cries of antisemitism recently. Antisemitism is, as I stated, evil, criticizing the government of a country which doesn't act in the best interests of all it's people is not. Conflating the two makes reasoned discussion impossible.

I am really concerned by the comments on this thread where people are planning to run for fear of a second Shoah. The vast majority of people who are critical of the Knesset's actions will not stand by and watch it happening again. I hope.

I'm one of those who has been vocally critical of Israel. I'm not in the least anti-Semitic. I view them as a hard-line right-wing US client state.

Also the vast majority of the posters who have criticised Israels actions have done so out of distress at civilian deaths, and an understandable refusal to simply accept the Israeli narrative. Anyone who has conflated Israel with Jewish people has been pulled up sharply.

Hmm. I don't think it's as clear cut as you suggest

• criticism of Israel is important and increasingly valid
• criticism of Israel from a stance that it doesn't have a right to exist is, for me, anti-Semitic

-criticism of Israel from a stance whereby other countries are simultaneously doing much worse but are never mentioned or condemned looks anti Semitic to me. -criticism of Israel where the critic can't even be arsed to sort out whether they mean Israel or Jewish people - is antisemitic.

what's been going on in the Middle East wouldn't 'turn' British people anti Semitic unless they already were that way.

I couldn't agree more with thetravelling lemon. Some of the contents on here have been very frightening. Why should we put up with anti semitic attacks in England just because lots of palestinians have been killed? How does that make such actions acceptable? Why should I worry that my children are going to be attacked in the street and be witness to outrageous offensive behaviour and that to be okay because it's not as bad as what is happening in Gaza. What is going on in Britain is horrible and reading some of the threads on here are petrifying.

Most jewish people in the uk support Israel, those who don't are a minority. They don't all approve of the current actions and the current government but they support Israel because one day in the not too distant future it might be the only place for them to go. Like thetravellinglemon I could never have imagined having to leave the UK, my home, because of anti semitism but over the last few weeks its a topic of conversation which is coming up time and again. I hope it never happens but I will support the state of Israel to the end regardless of my reservations about their actions, and believe me I am not have real issues with them because at this point in time is starting to seem like the only place where we might be able to go.

CaptChaos, I understand that you might think I'm being dramatic, but a second shoah does not happen over night. You say that people would stand up and not allow it to happen again. My worry is when? When will they stand up? When Jewish businesses are boycotted or attacked? When places of worship are ambushed? When Jews are attacked on the street? When thousands of 'ordinary people' stand shoulder to shoulder with those calling for the death of an entire race?

Hindsight is a marvellous thing. We've probably all looked back to the thirties and wondered why Jews didn't just leave while they had the chance.

Believe me, there's a voice in my head too telling me that I'm being over dramatic and the UK will be a safe place to raise my babies. But there's another voice aswell reminding me that it's one hell of a risk to take.

I meant I have real issues with the actions

I'm very curious about the anti semitic posts on Mumsnet. Where are they please?

There is no doubt some anti-Semitism about. I have met two anti-Semites and was quite shocked by their opinions. There is also some anti-Muslim, some anti-Arab and some anti-Palestinian talk around. Some of the worst comes from Israel. There are also accusations made to people who criticise actions of the State of Israel, that such criticism is anti-Semitic. However that is a dishonest old debating trick which is easily detected.

I have no way of telling if there is more now than there was at times in the past, or if we are just more conscious of it, or if it is just being reported more.

mumblepot you realise that does make you an anti Semite, don't you? Refusing to empathise about anti Semitic attacks in Europe because of Israeli actions in Palestine means you are conflating the state of Israel with Jewish people and condoning anti semitism. People like you are the problem.

I'm not sure it's anti-Semitic to criticise the process by which the state of Israel came into existence. That's a different issue to believing that it has a right to exist.

On the three Israel threads- (many comments deleted) although bizarrely a couple of people hinted it was Jews on the plane thread. I avoid conspiracy threads too because you always know where that's going.

What stands out for me, as a pp suggested, was the generalising and 'othering' going on.

A man using Twitter to call for a Jewish neighbourhood in London to be bombed so 'Jews feel the pain' of the Palestinians

Entirely wrong of course, but it's hardly surprising that people want to protest about the slaughter in Gaza.

Good example of rabid anti semitism on mn here