AIBU, to be concerned about increasing anti-semitism throughout Europe

[DikTrom]

Yesterday's Sunday Times had a number of articles about increased anti-semitism in the UK. Same is happening in the Netherlands and even more so in France and Germany.

Apologies for not empathising OP, but I am just a tad more concerned by the slightly more disturbing murderous attacks on over 1000 Palestinians by the Jewish state of Israel in the last few weeks...over 200 being children. No this doesn't make me anti Semitic, it makes me a human being....

I am Arab- from a Muslim family, although I am agnostic. DH was raised Jewish but also doesn't believe. He has some relatives in Israel. And the fear I had when mosques were attacked I can now see even moreso in his family and I fear for them and DH. I have walked past graffitied swastikas on the wall and although the nazis used that symbol against people with disabilities, Communists and so on, I have no doubt that when people use it nowadays, it is mainly because of anti-semitism. French Jews are moving away- synagogues there are being burnt, shops attacked. The shooting in Brussels, the violent assaults against Jews in France- it's horrifying, and often being excused by what is happening in Israel. I think religious extremism and fascism is rising across Europe.

YANBU and I agree that 'othering', an excuse for mindless hatred, is on the rise to a frightening degree.

I'm not anti-Semitic, I'm anti-Zionist. That's a political and humanitarian position. Some people are too thick to tell the difference. More don't want to know the difference, they just want to justify cruelty.

mumblepot can you not be concerned for both?

For innocent people dying in Palestine, and for innocent people being terrorised across Europe? They don't need to be connected by anything but sympathy for those in trouble and danger.

MoreBeta

I think it is interesting that your number 1 point as an issue is the rise of extreme Islam being a possibly contributing factor to attacks on Jewish people and your point number 3 being the actions of Israel. I think I would really be swapping these points around!

Mumblepot26 "Apologies for not empathising OP, but I am just a tad more concerned by the slightly more disturbing murderous attacks on over 1000 Palestinians by the Jewish state of Israel in the last few weeks...over 200 being children. No this doesn't make me anti Semitic, it makes me a human being...."

What has people being concerned about Jews in Europe being attacked and threatened got to do with the Israeli/Palestine conflict? You sound like you think Jews deserve this treatment.

Must admit it wasn't aware things had gotten this bad until reading a few threads over the past day or so.

Mumble pot, what has some old bloke in north London got to do with what is isreal are doing? Are you saying it is ok for Jewish people in France to be attacked because a country that has nothing to do with them has a policy that others disagree with? What's that saying a little knowledge is a dangerous thing....

You just have to look at some of the Israel/Gaza threads on here to see full blown anti semitism. It's shocking to see what MNHQ allows to remain but goes to show how desensitised people are to anti semitism; I think a lot of the time it isn't even noticed.

Really Bambabini??

What has people being concerned about Jews in Europe being attacked and threatened got to do with the Israeli/Palestine conflict? You sound like you think Jews deserve this treatment.

I think Mumblepot has a more than valid argument and it doesn't not in any way sound like she is suggesting Jewish people deserve to be assaulted in Europe but come on, we all know who is getting the raw deal here!

There are two separate issues here - the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, and antisemitism in Europe.

If a post is about antisemitism in Europe, why bring in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict? Jews in Europe are also largely against the killing of Palestinian children. They don't have any say in it since they can't vote in the elections in Israel or influence the government in any way.

Or is does Mumblepot mean they must agree simply because they're Jewish (and everyone knows Jews stick together)? Watch the stereotypes come out!

I imagine she said it because it follows that (some) people angry with Israel/looking for a fight, will look for Jewish people to take their anger out on. No? Regardless of the fact that there are lots of Jewish people themselves protesting against what is happening.

ThunderbumsMum your post says it all really, have also been so saddened to see some posts here on Mn on the conflict recently.

IMHO I think a deeper issue of seeing us and then the less human 'other' is often visible in all these discussions. It is all very easy to point to the most violent extremists and say we are not like them whilst ignoring that many of us use language which reinforces the otherness of certain groups and therefore fuels prejudice. I don't feel I have explained that well but I am struggling to pull the right words from my thoughts and form them into coherent sentences.

It is the everyday racism/prejudice that is seen by many to be normal and therefore those who object are just making a fuss and being over sensitive. When I was 14 I was mugged, telling a friend about it he immediately said "was he black?" He took great offense when I said that this was a racist statement. My cousin was mugged recently and got the same "was he black" question, then when he said no he got "oh one of them Eastern Europeans then." It's "them an us" and from people that when challenged would deny vehemently that they hold such prejudice, like the hatred of women it is so deeply entrenched as to be normal. I'd say all of us hold these feelings against certain groups, some of us hide them better and don't show them to the world but I believe anyone who denies that prejudice, however fleeting, does not cross their mind at certain points ever is a liar. It is deeply embedded in us all.

I'm often told that I am overly PC and a language police, but language is immensely powerful. If we look at the great leaders and the great despots of the past they were largely superb orators. Hitler was evil but he could whip up a crowd of normal people and get them onside. We talk of oppressed people having no voice and liberated people finding theirs. Language matters it is important and it should not be ignored, it shapes feelings and reinforces beliefs.

The othering and disassociation is already very visible on this thread. The rise of anti-semitism must be linked to the Gaza atrocity, therefore It is the Jews fault. I am deeply opposed to what is happening in Gaza, but so are very many Jews. Not all Jews support Israel, not all Israelis support the Gaza offensive. Jews are not one homogenous whole. One feeling many of us who support Palestine have is that it is a collective punishment. Yet their seems to be almost approval for a collective punishment against all Jews in retaliation. They had it coming, they did this, what did they expect. IMO what is happening in Gaza is an atrocity but it is not the fault of each and every Jew, it does not excuse anti-semitism just as 9/11 did not justify Islamophobia.

The for and against Israeli arguments always seem to end up with Islamophobics vs Anti-Semitics and I am just tired of the whole thing. I'm tired and have drunk too much wine but am glad to be safe in my bed in Britain. I'm agnostic but am praying for everyone everywhere tonight as I fear the world is going to hell by our hands

Pissed and went off too long, sorry! I'm going to bed where I belong.

Greeneggs "I think Mumblepot has a more than valid argument and it doesn't not in any way sound like she is suggesting Jewish people deserve to be assaulted in Europe but come on, we all know who is getting the raw deal here!"

So because of the Gazans being killed, no one can start a thread about Jews in Europe fearing the rise of anti semitism and for their families? Sounds like you are telling Jews to shut up and put up as they aren't dying in their hundreds and are getting a better deal than Gazans. I think that is very anti Semitic actually. Sounds to me you're blaming all Jews for what's happening in Israel.

I've exhausted all my arguments on facebook, and I've gotten unfriended and written off for saying both sides are wrong. I think they've both lost sight of what they're fighting for.

If killing innocents is now an acceptable cost of war, then what are they fighting for?

This war isn't going to determine who's right, it's only going to show who's left.

There's beena sharp rise in Islamophobia too. To the point where people have been murdered.
Feels like elements of society becoming far less tolerant, rise of UKIP etc.

Absolutely shocking that posters are unable to differentiate between actions of the state of Israel and say, nigella lawson or Maureen Lippmann. Minty, I'm disappointed that you'd suggest such shit.

Shocking, but not surprising. On the threads about Israel - some posters cant help but talk about Jews instead of the Israeli govt.

Mumblepot, you sound like a great humanitarian - so concerned about Palestinians killed by Israel that you have no room for concern about anyone else. Not even the 1000s of Palestinians killed by Syria this year or the 200 children massacred by Syria this month. Nor the children killed in sudan, or the conflict in the ukraine, I bet that didn't enter your radar.

still, if there are attacks on innocent Muslims in this country, (as reprisals for syria, iraq, afghanistan etc) we can all say we don't care, can't we? They brought it on themselves.

Did you know Palestinians are Semites?

I imagine op is aware. Did you know in common parlance anti-Semitic is used to describe anti-Jewish?

Yes, limon, in the older and more correct sense of the word, all Jews and Arabs are of the semitic races. However, Anti-Semitism has come refer to feelings antagonistic to Judaism in particular, as differentiated from Islamophobia, which is more against Islam. There are plenty of people who are both!

I can really recommend last Sunday's Sunday Times if you can still get hold of it. It looks at the issues in a number of ways and is really an eye opener if so far you were not so aware of this.

It is interesting that some posters here also mention The Gaza violence as a justification. This is wrong for two reasons:

1. The attacks are on Jews who are going about their daily business and have nothing to do and no influence on Israel 's policies - nobody would deem it acceptible to do the same to Muslims because Boko Haram, ISIS, Libya, Irak, Afghanistan etc
2. Too many innocent people die in Gaza, latest count around 1000 although maybe not all innocent as they include Hamas fighters. Nobody protests against killing of many many more Muslims by the various nasty regimes in Islamic countries, think Syria, Irak, Boko Haram, ISIS etc etc, why so little outcry about this whereas many more Muslims are being killed here? as the article argues itvseems tonsuggest an inherent anti-sematism within Islam and this is extremely dangerous and needs to tackled, at least in the West. It needs to be explained that this attitude, together with homophobia, is totally unacctable in Western society. Tjis applies to all who behave in this way, so obviously not just Muslims, also far right groups etc.

I think it's depressing that on Mumsnet, a left-leaning, liberal forum, there are some who are not roundly condemning anti-semitist attacks on innocent people.

We all know what's going on in the middle east. Many or most of us are concerned, it not condemning of, Israel's actions.

Jews are not Israelis are not all sympathisers with Israeli actions!

To respond to any kind of prejudice against any minority with 'well look at what Israel are doing', 'what's the elephant in the room?' etc is despicable.

We are talking about old people and kids being sworn at, threatened, spat at in the streets in Britain in 2014.

if not condemning of Israel's actions.

Interesting to read the justification around Israeli actions in Palestine. I am not a zionist, though I have family in Israel, and I am appalled at the actions on both sides.
I have also been called a jew cunt last week, my rabbi was abused in the street and our synagogue had swastikas painted on it about a month ago. Concern for palestine is being used to justify a new aggression towards jews. The reality is that anti-semitism has been below the surface for generations but the shadow of the holocaust is long and people wouldn't voice it. Now they have a reason to say what they have always thought.
The question is, what happens to us? There is an increasing support for the far right and an acceptance of religious motivated violence in certain countries. When do we run? Because if we don't run and we leave it to late, well look what happened last time.