AIBU, to be concerned about increasing anti-semitism throughout Europe

[DikTrom]

Yesterday's Sunday Times had a number of articles about increased anti-semitism in the UK. Same is happening in the Netherlands and even more so in France and Germany.

My point is that it's not normal for anyone to have those feelings. It doesn't matter that millions of Americans did, it was still wrong and not normal.

I only mentioned my own response to illustrate that if even someone affected by the attacks did not have this reaction, it can hardly be 'normal' for people unaffected directly to respond in this way.

I agree with you that people do expand the universe of 'enemy' in these situations, but I would not regard this as normal, rather it is the result of historical racism, political scapegoating, inflammatory propaganda, etc and so on.

To say it's normal is to imply that it's inevitable and not much can be done about it -- except of course for the victims to make sure that no one from their ethnicity or religion ever does anything wrong.

My this is a lively thread!
I do not wish to make light of that. Feelings run high for a variety of reasons.

Has anyone got any constructive ideas on how the frightening rise in anti-Semitic and other anti-releigious diatribes and actions can be halted?

For a start, can't we try to draw a line under things that happened beyond living memory (that's pre WWII) and preferably even more recently? Whilst history can help to explain what is going on and where we are now, the best thing about history is that it can provide answers to make the future better?

For what it is worth, I think the UK is one of the least racist/intolerant places on earth (not to say it is at all perfect) but we need to promote and cherish that or we will lose it.

shocking post about events in Europe. Another thing that strikes me is that many people in the UK have Jewish ancestry. surnames have been anglicised etc and they may not even realise it.

also many of the jews in the uk are secular like some people are CofE but never go to church. They get on with life and don't make any demands and mind their own business.

I

Hi everyone,

Thanks for your reports about this thread.

We have now been through the thread to delete posts which seem to justify anti-semitism or are designed to be deliberately inflammatory.

Please do report anything you think we've missed, and be assured that we don't tolerate anti-semitism on our boards.

I just want to make it clear to whoever thought one of my posts "justified" anti-semitism that was not my intention.

I was talking about Israel's actions causing an increase in anti-semitism, not justifying that increase.

Thanks for posting that VampireSquid. It is really sad that so much of this is happening, but god to know and to be informed.

Israel's actions don't cause anti semitism, imo. I fucking hate what Israel is doing, and most people I know do, but that does not make you support Hitler or want Jews dead. I believe that a) it is an easy way of justifying your beliefs and b) that it can trigger anti Semitic action as they feel it is justified, but I don't believe it triggers the initial thoughts.

dreaming - re "I agree with you that people do expand the universe of 'enemy' in these situations, but I would not regard this as normal... It doesn't matter that millions of Americans did, it was still wrong and not normal."

We seem to be disagreeing on the definition/use of the word "normal". I don't think "normal" means "right" or "fair". I used it in the context of human psychology, re what people tend to do in such circumstances. And you agree that people "expand the universe of 'enemy' in these situations" - i.e. it happens regularly, therefore it is 'normal'.

I wasn't condoning it nor was I justifying anything. Just pointing out that shocking atrocities do cause negative feelings against people somehow associated with the perpetrators (Muslims in US in the days after 9/11, Jewish people these days when Israel is killing Palestinian civilians on a daily basis, etc) and that it is possible to reverse this trend by solving the Palestinian problem just like Bosnia stopped being an issue that radicalised a generation of young Muslims as soon as it was solved.

"To say it's normal is to imply that it's inevitable and not much can be done about it"

Quite the contrary, as I said above and several more times on this thread, like below:

CoteDAzur Fri 01-Aug-14 12:14:14
My point was that Israel's current actions are causing this increase in anti-Israel and anti-Jewish sentiment and that solving the Palestinian issue would reverse this trend.

CoteDAzur Thu 31-Jul-14 10:44:29
... wasn't racism. It was human psychology, generalising the enemy to those with association to the enemy.. Until you see this, you will not understand that the problem can be solved and is not about "Ooh they are just racists being racists, nothing Israel can do about that".

CoteDAzur Thu 31-Jul-14 10:21:01
If tomorrow Israel agreed to a sovereign country for Palestinians and withdrew from occupied lands, much of the hatred towards it from especially Muslim countries would cool off. Just like what happened when Bosnia massacres ceased and the situation was resolved - it stopped being a rallying call that radicalised a generation of young Muslims.

"Israel's actions don't cause anti semitism, imo. I fucking hate what Israel is doing, and most people I know do, but that does not make you support Hitler or want Jews dead."

Are we defining antisemitism as supporting Hitler or wanting Jews dead, then?

I thought antisemitism was negative feelings against all Jewish people, not necessarily wishing them all dead.

No, of course not! It was just a few examples of the more extreme behaviour which has been going on in some places in Europe.

So you are basically saying that terrorists should get their way, and then they will stop, CoteDAzur?

Remember I was saying earlier about how Hamas use children as human shields? That information is from the UN. It is a known fact that they do this. Hamas do not care at all about people in Gaza, they are happy to let them die and blame Israel. This is known by the UN, as a UN school was used.

Remember what others have said about how concrete supplied by Israel was used to build tunnels from Gaza to Israel? These tunnels, the ones being bombed, were to get Hamas military into Israel. There are other tunnels used to smuggle things in from Egypt, which have not been bombed, as Egypt doesn't much like it and Egypt has blocked off these tunnels/roads, not Israel.

The UN sent large greenhouses to Gaza, as it was seen to be a great way for them to grow their own produce and conserve water, and they could be used to help start up businesses to help the economy. They got built, they were used for about six months and then Hamas took them down so they could take the steel to use weapons. This is all documented by the UN, who are there to help and try to support people in Gaza.

Hamas have hit a hospital in Gaza with their own missile and then didn't help the victims but blamed it on Israel. This is really openly known about. If Israel say they are going to target a particular building or area and send warnings to gwt people out of the area, Hamas take down the warnings and actually send women and children to those places. This isn't from a Jewish or israeli source, it is from eye witness accounts of peace keepers on the ground.

So yes, it is terrible that so many civilians, especially children, have been killed, and that Hamas have chosen to send them to their deaths and then try to make out they are anything but terrorists.

YeGods - So you don't agree that peace is the way forward.

What is your suggestion? Kill'em all?

Ye Gods YeGods. What a very clear black send white view - must be so comforting -

Israeli soldiers have actually been convicted in Israel of using Palestinian children as human shields- still , I expect Hamas made them do it

The exact same can be said to you, but you wont accept that Hamas are terrorists or that they are responsible. Yes, it is not one sided as you seem to be constantly saying, Cote.

And I say again, war is horrific and not justifiable imo, but neither is it justifiable to take one aspect of this whole long conflict and use social media to say it is in any way understandable or acceptable or normal for European Jews, or anyone else, to be targeted for hate crimes as a result of what is going on in the middle east.

yegods Stop peddaling misinformation. Both the UN and Amnesty International have found no evidence that Hamas use their people as human shields as defined by international law. Not only that but the IDF have actually admitted to doing it themselves! By the way if you are so disgusted by 'terrorist' actions, how do you reconcile the Zionist terrorism used to force the creation of Israel? Was that ok cos it was your side?

I am not pedalling misinformation.

As Israel has tried and convicted its own soldiers, then that is good! It shows that it was not acceptable, they have a legal system and even members of their army are not above the law. Many countries have tried and convicted their own soldiers for breaking international laws, that is a good thing to do. If Hamas hasn't done so it doesn't necessarily follow that they would do it if they found their own personnel guilty of such a thing. Individuals not having been identified as guilty isn't the same as it never happened/happens, and it's a war, and they are a military group.

I am not here to defend Israel or be their spokesperson so you can stop asking me - it is just far more complicated than we can get in the press, and far more to this than the one side you keep peddling.

You are! You said Hamas use children as human shields and this information is from the UN. That is NOT true. I'll say it again both the UN and Amnesty International found no evidence that Hamas use their people as human shields. You also denounce the evil of Hamas 'terrorism' but you do not respond when questioned on Zionist terrorism. I denounce all violence so do not accuse me of being a Hamas supporter, I'm just trying to illustrate the hypocrisy in your sentiments!

Yes, but it is true that Israel have made advanced warnings of specific military targets where they have information of Hamas weapons stored, such as schools, mosques etc. Hamas have not passed this information on to people and instead have hidden/destroyed the warnings and let people go to the school/hospital or whatever. This might not be classed as using children as human shields in international law, as individuals have not been identified, but it has happened.

You asked me to justify zionist terrorism, and I won't do that! Of course I denounce all terrorism. I have already said on this thread that I do not think Israel is justified in bombing Gaza, but equally, there is wrong on both sides and it is a mess. Expanding the problem to draw in Europeans is not helpful.

There is no point in raking up the past as far back as 1948 now. Whether I know about it is, frankly, completely irrelevant to this topic! To get to a peaceful workable solution in any conflict there has to be a long term view of how to move forward, not backwards.

It doesn't help to keep banging on about this Middle Eastern conflict in relation to European hare crimes. An increase in hatred in Europe isn't just going to disappear if the Middle East suddenly finds some miraculous peaceful solution somehow.
Stirring up more hatred in Europe is likely to result in more, not less hatred towards all ethnic and religious minorities, and more support of far right extremist political parties. There does seem to be more of this kind of unpleasant stirring up trouble.

I agree of course that any violence against Jewish people arising from anti semitism is wrong. I hate all violence and find the rise of right wing extremism very worrying. I cannot not question those who seem to defend Israel's current actions. It is too awful.

*However, I cannot not question

"The exact same can be said to you"

No, it can't. I want peace. I want Israelis and Palestinians to be able to live safely in their homes, in their respective countries. For that to happen, Palestinians need to have a country.

What is it that you want?

Kill them all?

"you wont accept that Hamas are terrorists or that they are responsible"

What does it matter what we call them? Here, I'll call them terrorists, if you want me to: Hamas are terrorists. Or they are freedom fighters. The distinction depends on which side of the conflict you are looking from.

Of course violent extremists get chosen to lead a group of people who are effectively living in an open-air prison, with no security and under constant threat of death and bombarding. Try reading the MSF quotes I posted earlier.

"war is horrific and not justifiable imo"

This is not "war" - war is when two countries fight out their differences with their armies. This is slaughter of civilians. It is a crime against humanity.

YeGods -

There is no point in raking up the past as far back as 1948 now

Does that apply to the Holocaust then? No, thought not, and nor should it. You can't begin to understand the whole Palestinisn situation without including the past ffs

Some people on this thread really don't have a clue about the roots or history of antisemitism and so are making the naive assumption that Israel's actions are causing it. Antisemitism, sadly, is rooted in a theological antijudaism within Christianity (put simply early Christianity got into talking about itself as the replacement religion - the new chosen people, so began to denigrate Judaism and talk about how much better it was than the OLD religion) Christianity became the official religion of the roman empire and along with spread of christian culture was spread a deep seated antijudaism. This is evidence in art and literature and was acted out in progroms and massacres.

Thank goodness since the second world war the mainstream churches have addressed their own antijudaism as it was very clear how this created the mind set that allowed the holocaust to happen.

Ironically the founding of the state of Israel has its roots in European Jewry wanting to establish a safe space in the wake of the Dreyfus affair in France - where the false accusations against a Jewish officer led to massive outbreaks of antisemitism. Antisemitism was not caused by the Dreyfus affair, antisemitism is not caused by the actions of the state of Israel, antisemitism exists because christianity demonised Jews in order to bolster its own claims. that antisemitism is now embedded in western culture, usually below the radar, but any events which portray any Jews in a nativity light (rightly or wrongly) ALWAYS give people tacit permission to express it.

Some of us are expressing anger, sorrow, outrage at the actions of a state. Others on this thread are taking the actions of that state as legitimisation of their own deep seated prejudices and appear to be justifying anger at Jews in Europe by reference to the actions of other Jews somewhere else in the world. THAT is how antisemitism works.

And yes there are clear parallels with how other prejudices work too, such as islamophobia, but this thread is about antisemitism in Europe.

I am not Jewish but I do know history and so I choose to stand with my Jewish friends and neighbours in absolutely refuting the legitimacy of any antisemitic words Or actions - I stand with many of them in condemning Israel's actions - but you know what - even if they approve of Israel's actions that does NOT legitimise attacks on them.