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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

AIBU, to be concerned about increasing anti-semitism throughout Europe

621 replies

DikTrom · 28/07/2014 21:23

Yesterday's Sunday Times had a number of articles about increased anti-semitism in the UK. Same is happening in the Netherlands and even more so in France and Germany.

OP posts:
TheLovelyBoots · 01/08/2014 11:03

"Well, there are far more posts condemning Israel than condemning Hamas"

Hamas exists because of the treatment of the Palestinian people. Do you expect them to just tolerate this sort of treatment? If someone showed up at your house, kicked you out, and settled there, would you say, oh I'm definitely going to speak to my MP about this.

YeGodsAndLittleFishes · 01/08/2014 11:03

I have as much involvement as anyone here, PigletJohn. I don't count myself as 'other' to either side, no matter how other people may judge me.

If you want peace, you're going a funny way about it. It is so much more complex than can be solved by flinging missiles over borders (in whatever direction) or mud slinging on here.

Do you live in a town with a Jewish or Muslim community? Perhaps we could both agree to walk through these communities in the coming weeks and spread some kindness somehow. Wouldn't that be more persuasive and constructive?

VampireSquid · 01/08/2014 11:03

I would say it is quite anti Jewish to use a discussion on hate crimes to talk about an unconnected crisis and therefore appearing to justify anti semitism, as if it was relevant past the 'it is used as an excuse'.

SetPhasersTaeMalkie · 01/08/2014 11:04

Yes I would conflate it with being anti Jewish when it is being stated on a thread about anti semitism in Europe.

It reads like a justification. That may not be your intention PigletJohn but that is how it reads to me.

PigletJohn · 01/08/2014 11:08

Set phasers

My criticisms of the State of Israel as described above are generally not on the anti-semitism thread.

My criticisms of racial and ethnic hatred are generally on the anti-semitism thread.

SolomanDaisy · 01/08/2014 11:10

I doubt it's being investigated as a hate crime, we are in the Netherlands and I don't think it would be considered one. I suspect it was young teenagers just drawing things they knew would be offensive, without understanding what they were doing. It bothers me more that the committee immediately saw that the spurting cock was offensive and removed it, but not the swastika. It confuses me too, because the elderly people at the groups there will have lived through German occupation and remember exactly what it means.

PigletJohn · 01/08/2014 11:11

...and my criticisms of Jews for being Jews do not exist.

CoteDAzur · 01/08/2014 11:11

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VampireSquid · 01/08/2014 11:14

It is anti Semitic to have negative feelings to all Jews by proxy. It is like saying because of 7/7, it is fine to commit hate crimes against Muslims or people like me (raised Muslim).

TheLovelyBoots · 01/08/2014 11:14

It seems totally normal to me that you would discuss Israel's actions in this context. When discussing Islamaphobia, 9.11 always comes up (or Boku Haram) and that's pretty logical. I have a (secular) Muslim husband and I wouldn't be surprised if he would raised the point. It's part of the discussion.

dreamingbohemian · 01/08/2014 11:19

Yes, it is a war. You don't need two states to have a war, otherwise there would be no such thing as civil wars. You need two armed combatants, and the usual threshold for calling it a war is at least 1000 deaths in a year.

It may be a very one-sided war but it is still a war.

halfdrunkcoffee · 01/08/2014 11:23

Excellent post JFR!

This thread has been a bit of an eye-opener for me. I had thought anti-Semitism in the UK was negligible so I am saddened to hear you feel this way TravellingLemon and others. My dad is Jewish although non-religious/non-practising and AFAIK has never experienced any prejudice.

Europe I had been more worried about given the recent shootings at the Jewish museum in Brussels and before that the children who were killed at the Jewish school in France. Extremism seems to be on the rise and needs to be tackled.

CoteDAzur · 01/08/2014 11:25

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dreamingbohemian · 01/08/2014 11:47

It was unfair, terribly distressing, but entirely normal for millions of Americans to have negative feelings towards Muslims after 9/11 - after all, thousands of civilians were killed in 9/11 in their name, and any Muslim could be an Al-Qaeda supporter, and therefore "the enemy".

Bullshit. Total complete bullshit. I say that as an American who was personally affected by 9/11.

I never had negative feelings toward Muslims. Al Qaeda, sure, but Muslims, no. That's because I knew that AQ was an extremist group that most Muslims also disapproved of, so the idea that any Muslim could be in AQ was laughable.

That is a normal response. The people who attacked random Muslims were either racist, stupid, easily swayed by domestic propaganda or had their own issues going on.

Quivering · 01/08/2014 11:48

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dreamingbohemian · 01/08/2014 11:56

And if I came across a thread about Islamophobia in Europe, including posts by people who had suffered from it and were frightened, I do not think it would be appropriate at all to start talking about 9/11 or 7/7. Perhaps just to say -- yes, it's terrible that Islamophobia has increased so much since 9/11. Unfortunately some racist/stupid people are using that as an excuse.

But not to say -- sure Islamophobia is terrible but look at what AQ did on 9/11. Here are some videos of Muslims chanting Death to America. It's normal for people to be Islamophobic after what Muslims did on 7/7. Or every time people start talking about Islamophobia in the UK, bringing up examples of people in Pakistan or Iraq slaughtering babies.

Do people really not see the difference?

Toomanyhouseguests · 01/08/2014 11:56

Bravo John Farley Ruskin!

groovyolmutha · 01/08/2014 12:00

You are right to be concerned. I notice that no-one has spoken of the rise in anti-christian actions?

These are also greatly on the increase in various parts of the world although it is usually only the media grabbers (e.g. the stolen girls in Nigeria, two school girls in Africa beheaded on the way to school) that get the main attention.

It is all part of a scary trend relating to reduced tolerance and polarised feelings about "others".

I agree with those identifying economic issues and rise of extreme Islam. Actions of Israel certainly do not engender pro-Jewish feelings at the moment and probably making things worse but this is part of a bigger picture.

I think religious intolerance is the new racism. We all need to fight religious intolerance at every possible opportunity!

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 01/08/2014 12:09

I think that there are different approaches on this thread that are clashing to some extent. For some people this thread is an intellectual / ethical discussion but for others it is more visceral because it is directly about them and their loved ones.

I am just going on my experiences on the threads where someone is rolling out the "all Muslims want to [insert negative of your choice]" comments. As much as I want to be logical and dispassionate; it's really hard to get over the knife to the guts feeling that someone doesn't like my DC just because of their religion.

So on that basis, I would like to say that anti-semitism is unacceptable and I am sad to hear of anyone who has been made to feel uncomfortable or unsafe in their day to day lives.

Quivering · 01/08/2014 12:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CoteDAzur · 01/08/2014 12:14

dreaming - I didn't say all Americans. It is not what you thought/felt but was obviously not "bullshit", since many of your compatriots did think/feel those things.

I just realised I need to clarify that my comments re "negative feelings about Muslims in America" were about the immediate aftermath of 9/11 - as in the days & weeks after the event, not now. I was pointing at how "the enemy" can expand to people associated with "the enemy" in the minds of ordinary (non-racist) people who are shocked by the atrocities they are witnessing.

My point was that Israel's current actions are causing this increase in anti-Israel and anti-Jewish sentiment and that solving the Palestinian issue would reverse this trend.

Ketchuphidestheburntbits · 01/08/2014 12:18

I agree with JFR. Why does a thread about the alarming rise in anti-semitism keep talking about Israel? All Jewish people in Europe just want to be able to live in peace and without fear of attack in whatever country they live in.

VampireSquid · 01/08/2014 12:21

From an brittle I've just read: Across Europe, anti-Israel rallies are including distinct displays of anti-Semitism, from synagogues being attacked to Jewish-owned stores being vandalized and to Jews citizens being threatened and told they are not welcome.

A survey of the most recent gatherings held by pro-Palestinian demonstrators was described in Britain’s Telegraph newspaper:

In Berlin, police had to step in to protect an Israeli tourist couple at the weekend after protestors turned on them when they spotted the man’s yarmulke. Demonstrators reportedly charged towards the couple shouting “Jew! We’ll get you!”

In Paris, hundreds of protestors have attacked synagogues, smashed the windows of Jewish shops and cafes, and set several alight, including a kosher grocery store which reportedly burned to the ground.

In the Netherlands, the home of the chief rabbi has been attacked with stones twice in one week.

According to the Anti-Defamation League which has been tracking the incidents, a protester in Lyon, France, hit a Jewish teen in the head and yelled, “I want to kill all the Jews.” He was arrested.

In Zurich, the ADL reported, demonstrators chanted, “Jews into the sea!”

On Saturday, in Sarcelles, France, anti-Israel protesters threw a Molotov cocktail toward a synagogue and burned a Jewish-owned mini-market.

Berlin police spokeswoman Cosima Pauluhn told the Associated Press that an investigation was launched after Imam Abu Bilal Ismail of the Al-Nur mosque said last week that Jews should be killed.

The mosque did not return the news service’s calls seeking comment.

More violent language was used in Italy, not by a Muslim leader but by a philosopher and politician, the Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported, who said he would like to personally kill Israelis and that he was beginning a fundraiser to buy Hamas more bombs to help him do so.

Gianni Vattimo, who is also a former member of the European Parliament, told Radio 24, “I’d like to shoot those bastard Zionists.”

Asked if he would like to see more Israelis killed, Vattimo said: “Of course!”

Later, he added that “unfortunately can’t really shoot” because he was exempted from military service, Haaretz reported.

In explaining why he wanted to raise money for more Hamas bombs, Vattimo said Hamas is “fighting with toy rockets that don’t really kill anyone.” He also suggested Europeans form military units to fight alongside Hamas, like volunteers fought in the Spanish civil war.

He described Israel as “a bit worse than the Nazis.”

On Wednesday, a Belgian watchdog on anti-Semitism filed a complaint with a local mayor after finding a cafe was displaying a sign that said no Jews were allowed in.

The Jewish Telegraphic Agency reported that the Belgian League Against Anti-Semitism, or LBCA, said that the signs were in Turkish and French at a cafe in the town of Saint-Nicolas.

The text read, according to JTA, “Dogs are allowed in this establishment but Jews are not under any circumstances.”

A Palestinian flag, a keffiyeh and an Israeli flag with a red “X” were also in the window of the cafe.

Last week, JTA also reported on a shop owner in Antwerp who would not sell a visibly Jewish woman clothes “out of protest.”

JTA reported that nine synagogues in France have been attacked since Israel launched Operation Protective Edge two weeks ago following a major escalation in rocket attacks against Israel.

To address the hostile atmosphere, European foreign ministers have now stepped in.

“Anti-Semitic rhetoric and hostility against Jews, attacks on people of Jewish belief and synagogues have no place in our societies,” German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier, French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius and Italian Foreign Minister Federica Mogherini said in a joint statement Tuesday.

While they respected the right to freedom of speech, they said they would do everything possible to combat “acts and statements that cross the line to anti-Semitism, racism and xenophobia.”

German Chancellor Angela Merkel on Wednesday lambasted the anti-Semitic displays.

“The chancellor and the entire German government condemn the anti-Semitic remarks made at pro-Palestinian and anti-Israeli demonstrations in Germany in the strongest terms,” Merkel’s spokesman told reporters. “The chancellor and the entire government welcome the revival of Jewish life in Germany and will continue to stand up for the security of Jewish citizens.”

“We have reached a new level of hatred and violence in all of Europe that cannot even be compared to the anti-Semitism seen during previous conflicts in Israel,” Stephan Kramer, director of the European office on anti-Semitism of the American Jewish Committee in Brussels, told the AP.

Evidence of the anti-Semitic, not only anti-Israel, nature of the protests was seen in the slogans chanted by protesters and locations of protests. In several cities, synagogues, not Israeli embassies or consulates were targeted.

“They are not screaming ‘Death to the Israelis’ on the streets of Paris. They are screaming ‘Death to the Jews,’” Roger Cukierman of the Representative Council of Jewish Institutions in France told the Telegraph.

Cukierman has also expressed the fear of “pogroms.”

The Telegraph reported that 14 were arrested in the German city of Essen on suspicion they were planning to attack the city’s Old Synagogue.

The British paper further noted that there have been reports of German protesters chanting “Jews to the gas chambers.”

Police in Berlin have banned the slogan, “Jew, Jew, cowardly pig, come out and fight alone.”

Israel’s ambassador to Germany Yakov Hadas-Handelsman likened the recent events to the atmosphere in Nazi Germany.

“They pursue the Jews in the streets of Berlin…as if we were in 1938,” Hadas-Handelsman wrote in the Berliner Zeitung newspaper. “And if it continues, I fear that it is only a matter of time before innocent blood will be spilled.”

DioneTheDiabolist · 01/08/2014 12:21

A couple of points.
1). The OP wrote that her post was written following the articles in The Sunday Times. The first article on pg1 of TST opens: "Britain's Jews are suffering an anti-semetic backlash against Israel's military action in Gaza with attacks, bomb threats, bricks thrown at a synagogue and "Hitler was right" banners". So it is unsurprising that people are discussing Anti-semitism in Europe and Israel's actions in Gaza. It is the article that the OP is talking about.

2). Discussions on MN regarding Islamaphobia regularly descend into British Muslims being blamed/held to account for the actions of the Saudis, Boko Harem, FGM etc.

3). Anti "other" sentiment is on rise across Europe as we have seen for the best part of a year. Attacks on Jews, Muslims, the Disabled and immigrants have all risen in recent times. They are all despicable.

VampireSquid · 01/08/2014 12:21

*article not brittle