AIBU: MNHQ's thoughts and what you can do

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello there

We've seen a fair number of posts recently about AIBU, and specifically about whether there's a problem in terms of some posters being gratuitously aggressive, even if the posts aren't particularly guideline-breaking in any other way.

We've done some careful monitoring of AIBU over the last couple of weeks and... We agree. Quite a few threads in AIBU do seem to veer off into a pointlessly unpleasant direction with very little provocation.

So from now on, we're going be looking out for posters who seem to put the boot in a bit too readily, and we'll be dropping them "polite mails" asking them to draw their horns in a bit. (And then if they carry on, we'll take further action.)

We'll also remove the text from the header about AIBU not being a fight club, because it's possible that this was (perversely) prompting people to think it was a fight club.

We'd really, really like to enlist your help in making AIBU a more pleasant and constructive place to post.

First off, please don't feel you have wait for an MNHQ response: the MN forums are what you, collectively, make of them, and you can set the tone. If you think an OP is being rounded on, go on and post - and say (without making personal attacks) if you think other posts have crossed a line in terms of meanness or aggression. (Feel free to refer posters back to this thread!)

But also, please report. Not necessarily because you think a post is deletable, but if you think a poster could do with getting one of our polite mails.

To be completely clear: AIBU is exactly the same as all the other topics on Mumsnet, and the same rules apply. Ideally, we want MN to be a place where people can discuss, share, entertain each other, and seek advice and support. It's not a place for posters to take lumps out of each other for no reason, and with no intention of offering constructive/interesting/funny input.

Thanks,
MNHQ

"Criticism of the obese" is unpleasant though.

If you put it like that.

Discussion of lifestyle on a suitable thread is

Oops. Different.

General criticism and derogatory discussion about all obese people is definitely unpleasant.

I think after being here for a while you only have to look at a thread title to know it will not go well. Anything relating to

Obesity
Cycling
Cat Poo
Accessible loos
Dogs in the park
Weddings

To name but a few. Just do yourself a favour and hide the thread.

Yes I totally agree with MNHQ on that and most of the pictures did not specify that they were bred, there was more than one other TAAT for it. And there was no real evidence that the OP was an irresponsible owner really was there.

Of the numerous threads on accessible loos I am not persuaded that any but a mere handful of those have been started with anything other than GF purposes. Along with wheelchair spaces, blue badge places and so on

higgle Mon 28-Jul-14 11:59:11

I have mixed feelings on this issue. In the main I feel that people with unpopular views are simply shouted down and accused of being unpleasant when they are simply and politely putting a minority viewpoint. One example is that any criticism of the obese is "fat shaming" and it is a universal truth that this is a bad thing. Strangely you only have to pick up a magazine to read stories from people who are now thin saying it was some sort of fat shaming that put them on the right track

And stories in misogynistic celebrity mags/Womans Own/Bella etc are a really bad example to use. I notice you've used the word thin instead of the word healthy Very telling. Those mags are harmful And those sort of magazines normalize and minimise that kind of bullying. Imagine if your child was being bullied at school? Would they stand a chance thinking that this kind of bullying is normal having seen it in those "magazines" lying around the house? No they would probably think theres no hope and end up considering suicide at 14 like I did. Its the hypocrisy that sickens me. Have we really come to this as a society. That bullying is ok. That shouting comments about someones elses body shape is ok. In the street In the school. In the workplace. Because todays school bully is tomorrows workplace bully.
I lost 10 stone because I wanted to. I did get abused in the street and earlier in life but I didn't do it because of them. And citing those bloody ridiculous misogynistic rags as an example as well as using the word thin rather than healthy shows me that we still have a long way to go to cut through these prejudices. I find it really worrying to see these attitudes condoning bullying and condoning abuse (because it IS abuse) from parents.. I am absolutely disgusted. We as a society have to stop normalizing and minimizing this kind of abuse.

I have one of those vegan friends who sits and emotes about the poor dead animals, etc, etc, while I'm eating animal products. I politely told her it puts me off my food and said I won't be joining her for meals if she can't stop vilifying my choices. She stopped.

Telling someone whose cat is birthing that she's a horrible person for allowing the cat to be fertile, telling fat people they're horrible & have no right to be happy with their bodies, and telling people with children they shouldn't have had those children are all appalling manners, worse than my friend's and amounting to abuse.

There is no valid excuse for that sort of behaviour. If you've got an axe to grind, grind it on a thread about the topic in general. It's despicable to single people out for harassment over decisions they've already made.

"any criticism of the obese is fat shaming"

Yes, it is. Do you notice how you said 'criticism of the obese'? That is, you mean obese people. You've therefore said you feel entitled to criticise people for their body shape. You're not entitled to do this. It is abuse.

There are probably people in this world who find your voice annoying, think you're ugly or can't stand your hair colour. Do you think anyone who can't stand redheads should be proud to tell them how offensive they are? Is it OK with you if someone asks you not to speak in that whining/whatever voice, which happens to be your normal voice? How about education snobs who tell you to shut up if your degree isn't as high-level as theirs? Rude, aren't they!

higgle re the cat thread where the OP's cat was giving birth, MNHQ were absolutely right to post as they did on that thread. The issue was not to stifle a debate on nuetering, that thread was not the time or the place to air those opinions. Furthermore, the posters posting those opinions were badgering the OP to answer their questions, explain herself, justify her decision and enter into a debate with them, the only reason those posters were doing that was so they could give the poster a 'holier than thou' lecture. Not a single one of those 'you must answer my questions' posters offered any support or help to the poster.

No matter how many times others pointed out that the OP was under no obligation to engage with those posters, they still persisted in their "I will have an answer to my questions" rhetoric.

MNHQ calmly pointed out that those posters could debate the issue elsewhere which was exactly the right thing to do. No-one owes you an answer to a question, an explanation or a debate.

I think others have very succinctly answered you on the "criticism of the obese" point.

You left Benefits off the lists!

Actually I think that kitten watching threads are completely the right place to remind people that letting your cat have a litter is a very bad thing to do, because they are threads that make everyone think 'ahh how cute' and that might well encourage people to have kittens themselves.

The style and timing might not have been great, but once the OP had been to the vet and been reassured then I think it was absolutely fine. When we got our rescue cat the shelter had over 300 cats waiting for new homes, many of whom will now have been destroyed to make room for the next batch. There is really no justification for not having your cat spayed and I think it's a message that need to be said. The don't talk about uncomfortable things because it's cute kitties HQ message was I think very jarring.

The new thread just about spaying will be seen by a tiny number of people who probably already have spayed cats and so to some extent is quite irrelevant. Much more likely to be a thread just complaining about people like that OP and others on that thread who were talking about the kittens they had bred, which as with the section of this thread talking about JP is pretty unedifying (and yes I know she has bullet proof skin, but it still is at the very least very bad manners).

It's also bad manners to continually whinge on about the OP of that cat thread but I really doesn't seem to be stopping anyone.

nooka Mon 28-Jul-14 16:35:06

Actually I think that kitten watching threads are completely the right place to remind people that letting your cat have a litter is a very bad thing to do, because they are threads that make everyone think 'ahh how cute' and that might well encourage people to have kittens themselves.

And surely ppl are responsible for their own behaviour. After all us overweight people get told this all the time. You cant have one rule for one group of the population and a different rule for everyone else.

Well MNHQ made a decision that it wasn't the right place to have a go at the OP on the cat thread, and they said so.

Sanctimonious, self-righteous, lecturing, insisting your opinion is the right one and the only right one usually ends up with people completely ignoring you, switching off, or doing the exact opposite of what you are advocating.

People in the badgering camp have made assumptions and drawn conclusions without anything to base that prejudice on, because the OP quite righly refused to feed their prejudices or rise to their provocation. They want the OP and others to listen to them and act on what they say, but don't give the OP and others the same consideration.

Harold, I've reported you.

 

 

I've been a bit slack on that lately

The problem is not that posters disagree with OPs (or other posters) the problem is when they disagree in a nasty sneery way that is meant to upset or belittle.

There are some nasty shits about who seem to take pleasure in upsetting other posters. I think they take more delight in trying to disguise their contempt in pseudo clever arguments or fake moral outrage. One thing for sure is that you can be highly intelligent and still be a nasty piece of work.

You never know 'who' has posted on Mumsnet (apart from a few infamous ones ) You can't know their mental state or whether or not they are vulnerable. Even if an OP is clearly in the wrong you can still disagree in a sensitive way.

Yes, a bit more PARD goes a long way to avoid hurt and upset, really.

Yes to more PARD

Um what's PARD?

Tut tut Maryz, you fuck ducks, not PARD

(Polite And Reasonable Discourse, iirc)

I rest my case. I have genuinely held views about obesity and cat breeding( and dog breeding for that matter) My views on both matters are commonly held outside this forum but I'm set upon every time I try to voice either of them.
The other topics i can generally guarantee a savaging on are relationships, when I point out that the frequently cited best book on matrimonial problems was written by a religious fanatic who has been dead for over a decade and on the feminist thread when I point out waxing isn't necessarily evil. I've neen on her for thebest part of 10 years now and seldom change names, I can't really see shy anyone should mind honestly held views being attributed to them. I'd post under my real own name quite happily if that was the convention.

But it sounds like you have been here long enough to know what views will cause a bunfight and what won't wiggle. You don't have to post and you can hide the thread if need be-you know that.

I have lots of opinions but I don't post them all on MN.

If you feel 'set upon' then report?