The question of inheritance

[tiggerkid]

Hi all,

Not sure if this is really the right thread for this but can't think of any other to discuss the topic of inheritance.

Recently my sister-in-law and her husband announced that she is pregnant with her 3rd child and because they need a bigger house to accommodate, they will be moving into my MIL's house, who has a much larger property. Naturally, they understand that this move will raise the issue of inheritance, so they decided to sell their house and give us a small proportion of the value of their house on the grounds that they will still need money to look after MIL and renovate her house to their taste. The house is currently decorated to MIL's taste and, apart from the fact that it's cosmetically old fashioned, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. MIL is certainly happy with it the way it is because she's been doing various work on and off in keeping with her own taste.

At present, MIL doesn't need any looking after. She is in excellent health and is of sound mind, so as far as we are concerned, they only want to move in to extend their living space so to speak. Because they live nearer MIL, they've had plenty of opportunity to talk her into this idea and convince her that it will be paradise on Earth once they all move in together.

While I completely understand and agree that the party looking after ageing parent absolutely needs a bigger share of any inheritance, am I being unreasonable believing that 1) it should be a discussion involving all parties affected by such a decision 2) any agreed value of our share of inheritance should be based on the value of MIL's property rather than the smaller house that my sister-in-law is seeking to move out of? and 3) the question of keeping large sums of money to redecorate the house to sister-in-law's taste should be out of the question because it has nothing to do with looking after ageing parents?

Sorry for the long message but I just find it so unfair that my sis-in-law just decided to move into a bigger house to improve her living conditions and keep 80% of the value of their own house to do whatever they want to do without ever discussing it with us or giving us any opportunity to speak about this. MIL has only mentioned it to us in passing and doesn't want to discuss this any further because she wants to avoid confrontation. The only thing she said was: well you, guys, are financially better off than they are anyway, which made me even more annoyed and upset. If there is a reason why we are financially better off, it is because my husband and I work our butts off while my sister-in-law sits on her backside playing on Facebook all day long. It feels like MIL believes that we need to be punished and penalised for our hard work while my sister-in-law needs to be rewarded for her Facebook efforts.

I know in the end it is MIL's decision and, unfortunately, one that appears to be driven by my sister-in-law exploiting MIL's fear of being left alone in her old age. Although I doubt that we can do much to change the situation, I am struggling to keep discussing this with my husband as I don't want to upset him but I do need some emotional support and understanding, hence this post. Thank you, all.

"I don't think there is a will. Her decision as it stands is to pass on the house to SIL and BIL also allowing them to keep most of the proceeds from the sale of their own house. She does, however, intend to live with them until the end so to speak."
If there is no will, then MIL would have to sign over the house to them and it would be legally owned by her son and daughter-in-law. Otherwise, when she dies the rules of intestacy would apply and offspring would inherit equally.

So OP - when BIL & SIL move in, who will actually own the house - MIL or BIL&SIL?

If MIL - if she needs care home, she will have to fund it from sale of house.
If BIL&SIL - MIL is then very vulnerable and may come knocking at your door, which I hope you will keep firmly closed.

Just a thought, but are you sure your MIL knows you and your H have been contributing to her holidays and other expenses? Or ever seen any bills? It strikes me that SIL might have had a nice little earner going on there...

Who would have the heart to turn away their frail mother when she had been screwed over by their brother and SIL? Plenty of people seem to have suggested it.

Here's the thing. The people who need to get proper legal advice, don't appear willing to do so. Or even be willing to consider that they may need it. Or maybe they have and the bulk of the legal side have been sewn up behind the OP's DH's back.

So really all the OP's DH can do is raise issues, expecting people to ignore and leave him out of the loop. Becuase if you expect the worst in that regard you are less likely to be lulled into a state of false security.

OP, sometimes all you can do is look ahead and plan for the fall out of other people's fuck ups.

Having been there, done that, to some degree with late MIL and not late BIL making decsions like we didn't exist.. regardless of us being at risk of any backwash as well as them, my advice is go to a lawyer yourselves. So a lawyer can forsee how complications might affect you teo, and give you a plan of action for self protection should hiccups and Tsunami's come to pass.

Some of the issues you might want a lawyer to advise you on are..

What if SIL throws in the towel after a period of living with MIL and finding it less rosy than expected. What if anything could cause issues if for eg. she registers an interest in MIL's house based on her investment in decoration. Could MIL be forced to sell in order for SIL to extract her investment and buy herself a seperate home.

What if SIL can't cope with careing for MIL in the future. Who is liable for carer fees. Can your DH intervene with adult SS if he feels his mother is not being cared for adequately by SIL. Would you 2 be expected to cover any caring fees in the event that SIL sticks like a barnicle to the house, leaving MIL with funds on paper to pay for care (so putside of state funding)..... but with no way of liquidising the asset.

Stuff like that.

You can't make them go and get advice and act in a way that doesn't risk leaving you and your DH at the sharp end.

But you can go and get advice yourselves, with the aim of protecting yourselves from future things blowing up in your faces due to their mistakes, miscomprehension and mis-steps.

Oter than that, hang tight and take a watch and wait approach. Things can change faster than you immagine when reality checks happen in the early days of living together. Attitudes can change and decisions can be reversed as the dynamic flexes under the strain of adjustments. Pretty much you need to be ready for a volte face in the early days and "it's all gone horribly wrong" in the mid to long term.

Pico2
She knows what she's doing now and she isn't frail at the present.
If she won't listen to advice I really do think she'll have to take the consequences.
It has now occurred to me now OP that SIL may have been stealing from you.
Did you communicate with MIL about paying for her holidays or get any acknowledgement or thanks?
If I favoured one child and letthe other child rip me off I would not expect first child to sort it out.

So sil is mil's daughter and Dh's sister I take it. Disengage and let them get on with it. It's your Dh's issue - it may be favouritism, it may blow up in their faces in the future, rather them than you! Yes, I can understand your hurt feelings on your Dh's behalf. We live with a scenario whereby mil blatantly favours one child over the other two. Disengagement is the key - you reap what you sow! I have no feeling of obligation when mil attempts to manipulate us into dong things she wants. I simply smile and say 'no thanks."

I thought there were two sons and sil is op's dh's brother's wife . But don't quote me on that!

BackForGood has summarised the situation perfectly, this is what needs to happen next.

I know that she is strong and of sound mind now. However if she gets old, frail and perhaps a form of dementia, it is like punishing a baby to make her live in penury for the poor decision 20 years ago. I don't mean that any of this is right, or that the OP would have any obligation. I just mean that it would be very hard not to provide for her at that point.

Just a thought, but are you sure your MIL knows you and your H have been contributing to her holidays and other expenses? Or ever seen any bills? It strikes me that SIL might have had a nice little earner going on there...

I wondered about this. Not that they've been pocketing the money but perhaps they've given the MIL the impression they've paid for the entire holiday/maintenance/whatever themselves. (Or perhaps cannily said "oh yes, and we asked OP's DH for a small contribution too".)

The plan is probably for the MIL to be persuaded to hand over the house to the SIL and her husband once they've moved in. "But surely you see MIL, we've invested all our money from the sale of our house in renovating yours! Also, our 3 kids will need the security of a home!" There might be a vague reassurance that the other son and OP will be given an appropriate share in the future.

I also thought that about the holidays etc... Oh we will take care of that, mum. With no expansion of who we refers to, so that she thinks it is just bil and sil, not both brothers.

Good point about the holiday money. I'd deeply mistrust this pair and want to know if the money had gone towards mil's holidays and if she knew you were paying towards her holidays. What a shabby way your DH and you have been treated. I'd have no more to do with any of them.

Could your mil not just swop houses with sil and her dh? Then mortgage the bigger property to pay you out your share?

if mil needs care she has a house to sell to pay for care. Or could rent out to pay rent to stay at sil house.

ok sil would have to have a relatively small mortgage, but on a massive house. Still not a bad position to be in.

when the worst happens and mil passes, if no care was needed then there is another house to split between you.

OP
I am one of those of the opinion that you must live your life assuming no inheritance, i.e. you shift for yourself. It is MIL's money - her choice. That said , I get the emotion of thinking that DH has been "excluded" .

I can understand your DH's and your disappointment that your MIL seems to be favouring SIL. However , PPs make good points that if you do not know for example whether MIL knows e.g. whether you have paid for half holidays or towards her bathroom , how good is your DH's relationship with his mother that she does not know this ?. Again as PPs have said she may be feeling vulnerable and if she gets on with SIL this may seem like a good answer to her . From her point of view it probably looks quite different , especially if you and your DH look well set up.

I am not a solicitor , but this , it seems to me, cannot be as straightforward as they all think . So purely on googling (I am not not not a tax or inheritance expert)

If she keeps title and they move in then they are potentially vulnerable .
If she gives the house to them then all of them are potentially vulnerable e.g. (just a quick goggle - not an advert)
www.mackrell.com/pdf/ten-reasons-home.pdf

Your DH sounds like he cares about his mum. It would (again PP suggested ) seem like a conversation with someone qualified in these things may enable him to see whether his mum will be ok with what DB and SIL are suggesting and then he can see whether he thinks his brother and sister-in-law are acting in her interests as well as theirs.

Of course the trite answer as posted upthread would be - take the 20% , run for the hills and pay no more

Families eh? who'd have 'em

I think it is favouritism. Let them get on with it.

Mintyy, correct: SIL is DH's brother's wife.

ninjasuperted, my personal preference would definitely be for MIL to move into SIL's smaller house and continue to live independently for as long as that's reasonable and then discuss and draft her will such that nobody has to debate anything after she's gone. That's not what SIL and BIL want. They want MIL's bigger house and money to renovate it to suit their taste plus cash in the bank to supposedly look after her. They would not be able to afford to do what they want if they don't sell their own house.

all TBH, until now, it never occurred to me to question whether or not the money we contributed to MIL's holidays has been used in the way it was intended or whether, indeed, MIL knows about it. She certainly never thanked us but then she never does thank us for anything, so it's not something I considered to be out of the ordinary or suspicious! And this isn't just the case with DH, who is her son. In instances, when we weren't able to visit MIL on occasions such as her birthdays or mother's day, I always contacted BIL advising him that I transferred some money to his account for MIL as a gift. This was my own money, not DH's. I never get a thank you for that either but, again, nothing surprises me anymore.

In any case, even if she never knew about the holiday money, she certainly knows about all repairs we assisted with as she was in the house when the work was being done.

One thing I'd like to say is thank you all for your advice and taking time to respond to my post. Whether you agree or disagree with my feelings, I appreciate the time you have taken to reply to someone you don't know at all.

I guess there is no easy way to resolve this and it sounds like we ought to just move on with our lives. I just feel very-very sad for DH, not only because he is being excluded by MIL but also because I think her decision will spoil the relationship between us all. DH never asked MIL for anything and I am quite sure we can get on with things and support our own family, which is what we have done to date. However, it doesn't make it any less difficult for me to see how DH is being treated by his brother and his mother. It's not any sense of entitlement but more the thought that these people obviously take him for a fool and think it's ok to walk all over him and do as they please.

I guess there is no easy way to resolve this and it sounds like we ought to just move on with our lives.

That's the best approach OP.

As a low risk act of mischief, I'd take the initiative over the next holiday, discuss it with MIL, and see whether you can get BIL and SIL to hand over their half to you and your DH. Their response might be telling. If this did work, it would provide an opportunity to hand it to MIL and say "you know BIL and SIL usually give you their half and our half for your holiday, well this time it's us handing the halves over to you, have a good holiday!"

You're right - move on but I would get your DH to email them all CerealMom's (at 18.03) summary of what the ramifications of the whole thing is. Without further comment.

Nauticant

Well you sil seems to want her cake your cake and you mil cake, and scoff the lot. Totally unbelievable what some people find acceptable.

think the best advice is from pps who say stay well out of it and don't accept any pay out if you can afford not too.

YANBU.

It makes sense for DH to get as much info and make sure his family all have the chance to think over the many possible consequences of this properly, even if they choose not to.

It is also not uncommon for the bank accounts of elderly people to be drained once they move into a relative's home in this sort of informal way.

You also need to look at the options there are, should SIL find that caring for MIL is 'not what she expected' and the funds that would have gone to a carehome are no longer there. Otherwise you would be in a difficult position watching things fall apart, and that would be hard on your DH who cares what happens to his mother.

I don't think there is a will. Her decision as it stands is to pass on the house to SIL and BIL also allowing them to keep most of the proceeds from the sale of their own house. She does, however, intend to live with them until the end so to speak.

So both her sons will get half each. The house will have increased in value and you will have the money your BIL and SIL have given you from the sale of their house.

DayLillie, MIL refuses to hear any discussion about the possibility of her not getting on with SIL. She simply thinks it's not going to happen, which is a very rose tinted view in my humble opinion because SIL has only recently become part of the family. It's literally in the last 2 years she popped out 2 kids and is now pregnant with the 3rd. MIL has never lived with her before, so has no idea what it's like and, yes, it is entirely possibly that it may not turn out all that she expects it to be but at present she thinks we are being unreasonable even discussing the possibility of such a thing happening.

sashh, both sons aren't getting half each. SIL and BIL are getting MIL's house, selling theirs and keeping most of the proceeds from the sale of their house.

Sorry OP, but once you've used the i word you can't really expect posters to actually read what you've written.

Jeezo, so your SIL has only known your MIL for a few years? She is a gold-digging madam, isn't she?