The question of inheritance

[tiggerkid]

Hi all,

Not sure if this is really the right thread for this but can't think of any other to discuss the topic of inheritance.

Recently my sister-in-law and her husband announced that she is pregnant with her 3rd child and because they need a bigger house to accommodate, they will be moving into my MIL's house, who has a much larger property. Naturally, they understand that this move will raise the issue of inheritance, so they decided to sell their house and give us a small proportion of the value of their house on the grounds that they will still need money to look after MIL and renovate her house to their taste. The house is currently decorated to MIL's taste and, apart from the fact that it's cosmetically old fashioned, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. MIL is certainly happy with it the way it is because she's been doing various work on and off in keeping with her own taste.

At present, MIL doesn't need any looking after. She is in excellent health and is of sound mind, so as far as we are concerned, they only want to move in to extend their living space so to speak. Because they live nearer MIL, they've had plenty of opportunity to talk her into this idea and convince her that it will be paradise on Earth once they all move in together.

While I completely understand and agree that the party looking after ageing parent absolutely needs a bigger share of any inheritance, am I being unreasonable believing that 1) it should be a discussion involving all parties affected by such a decision 2) any agreed value of our share of inheritance should be based on the value of MIL's property rather than the smaller house that my sister-in-law is seeking to move out of? and 3) the question of keeping large sums of money to redecorate the house to sister-in-law's taste should be out of the question because it has nothing to do with looking after ageing parents?

Sorry for the long message but I just find it so unfair that my sis-in-law just decided to move into a bigger house to improve her living conditions and keep 80% of the value of their own house to do whatever they want to do without ever discussing it with us or giving us any opportunity to speak about this. MIL has only mentioned it to us in passing and doesn't want to discuss this any further because she wants to avoid confrontation. The only thing she said was: well you, guys, are financially better off than they are anyway, which made me even more annoyed and upset. If there is a reason why we are financially better off, it is because my husband and I work our butts off while my sister-in-law sits on her backside playing on Facebook all day long. It feels like MIL believes that we need to be punished and penalised for our hard work while my sister-in-law needs to be rewarded for her Facebook efforts.

I know in the end it is MIL's decision and, unfortunately, one that appears to be driven by my sister-in-law exploiting MIL's fear of being left alone in her old age. Although I doubt that we can do much to change the situation, I am struggling to keep discussing this with my husband as I don't want to upset him but I do need some emotional support and understanding, hence this post. Thank you, all.

we should all be up front about our wills and our wishes.

Agreed. Sounds like that is the case here, and the OP still has a chance to contribute. Or, more to the point, the woman's son has.

Morally, we try treat our children equally, because doing otherwise may cause rifts and ill feeling.
Morally, we dont try take over other peoples homes and assets from under their feet.

It is not just about the money, but the ill feeling a situation like this creates.

Of course Quint.

I rememeber saying to a good friend, I hope your mother sorts out her house now she is married....both second timers, other children etc....

She was very casual and cavilier about it - oh no, mum trusts X he would never see us out....

Q another family death, assurances of estate left in good order, huge bun fight over it - still going on years later....money dwindling...

I can tell you that friends mothers house is now locked into water tight will for the friend and her siblings.

Op I think letter would be a good route to go down....clear, bullit points...

So as I understand it -
Your MIL will continue to own her house. That puts a whole different complexion on it. The possible scenarios of when if it all goes tits up are very different.

1. They don't like living together : MIL owns house so can ask her DS and DIL to feck off move out. SIL will bitch about the money she has sank into the house to redecorate and upgrade, MIL will tell her that her taste in decor sucks anyway. It's unlikely they'll have spent all the proceeds of their house sale so they should have enough for a deposit on wherever they then move to.
2. BIL and SIL divorce : MIL's financial position is untouched, SIL and BIL would have to split their assets.
3. MIL dies : her assets are split according to her will or the rules of intestacy if she hasn't made one. She may leave everything to BIL and SIL, she may not.

TBH, MIL and SIL sound like they're made for one another.

"my husband and I don't get anything from MIL for either Christmas or our birthdays"
"She would only give [OP's son, MIL's grandson] a gift for his birthday if he happens to be visiting her at the time. If we aren't at her house on the day, then he won't get a phone call or a card from her. It's kind of out of sight, out of mind."
That is hurtful, and says a lot about this woman.

Personally I would stand well back and enjoy the fireworks. And be thankful that I was married to the only nice one of the lot.

Vivacia, believe me, over the years I have tried building a relationship with my MIL. I visited her on a regular basis, tried to make sure that she is fine and doesn't need anything and, like I said earlier, assisted with sorting out her divorce to ensure her interests are protected, helped with costs of her holidays and repairs in her house and many other things. This was long before my son was born and trust me, he doesn't get much from his grandmother, so I am not just looking to collect his birthday money.

If anything, it is my MIL, who treats us as some kind of bottomless pit for collecting money for her needs rather than the other way around. Perhaps, despite everything we have done for her, she has never warmed to me but I guess it then makes it possible that no matter what I do for her going forward, she will never warm to me anyway.

It's a terrible and unfair idea but your MIL is an adult, they are her assets and she can make her own stupid decisions.
All your DH can do is tell both her and his brother that if she has to go into specialist elderly care later on or needs care in the family home that they need to look carefully into how they are going to pay for it as you won't be in any position to help. I wouldn't take any money from your BIL and SIL's house or they will regard you as then liable to help out.
She probably thinks, like my MIL, she will die peacefully in her bed at the age of 90 having been active up to the last. The idea of a messy complicated old age will never have intruded into their fantasy world.

I've just read your last post and actually I think you should just view this as an 'out'. Your MIL has chosen to throw her lot in with your BIL and SIL at your DH's family's expense so you don't need to feel morally obligated to spend a penny on her ever again.
It is unfair. My PIL dote on my SIL and lavish money and time on her. DH gets the shitty end of the stick. They have now discovered they have spawned a narcissitic monster in SIL and have come running to us to look after them in their old age. It's too late for anything other than pleasantries as far as I'm concerned.

I think it puts a completely different angle on it if MIL will still own her own house.

So, I'm slightly struggling to keep up, what will become of Mil's house in her will?

It is completely different if she still owns her own house.

Aside from that she sounds like a very selfish woman.
What sort of person in their late 60s takes money off their children for holidays?
Most people would be happier seeing their grandchildren and children having a good time.
You are not responsible for her and it doesn't sound like you owe her anything.

Mintyy, I don't think there is a will. Her decision as it stands is to pass on the house to SIL and BIL also allowing them to keep most of the proceeds from the sale of their own house. She does, however, intend to live with them until the end so to speak.

So, when she dies, your dh's brother and sil will simply inherit it and continue to live in it?

It's extraordinary that they would all expect to maintain a cordial relationship with you after this.

Dh's brother and sil will in effect be living rent and mortgage free for years and will get to inherit the whole house when she dies? I just can't get my head round it!

OP the more I read this, the more I agree that you & your DH should stop giving your MIL money (whether you give her your time is another thing).

In fact, I'd go so far as to say put the money into a separate bank account, so you can watch it add up. Every time you are 'tapped up' make a point of depositing that money instead into a 'MY family' account. Have a party / go on holiday once a year on the proceeds.

Best case scenario is everyone gets proper legal and financial advice on the tax implications of this. There is a lot of swapping money around, all over £2000 so it needs proper planning.

If not, your DH should get some basic legal advice of what would happen if he accepted money from SIL (ie tax implications, who has actually given it him etc)

Probable sensible answer is to no accept money, make it clear that you will no longer be contributing to repairs, bathrooms and holidays and future care funding (who asks children to pay for their holiday, then 'distributes assets' whilst still alive and well?) and stand well back and let them get on with it. This might get hard if the future does not pan out to everyone's expectations, though.

Mintyy, yes, essentially what you are saying is a summary of what's happening. As I said, they are moving into MIL's house, using the proceeds from sale of their own mortgage-free but smaller house to redecorate and modernise MIL's house to their taste, keeping the rest for savings or to dispose of as they please. All under promise that they will look after MIL in her old age.

At this point in time, I think I am trying to look at it objectively but as much as I try, I somehow struggle to believe that all this is being done for the benefit of MIL rather than their own. And they don't strike me as the sort of people with whom you'd want a gentleman's agreement determining the remainder of your old age! So, yes, apart from the fact that I am hurt that my DH is being treated this way, I do also worry about what happens if this grand plan doesn't work the way it is envisaged at present.

Honestly, it's got nothing to do with you and any sympathy evaporated at this point:

tiggerkid
why are we paying for MIL's holidays? Haha, God knows but every year SIL calls us and says MIL is going on holiday, so we have to contribute 50% of the cost. Like I said, my husband is quite a soft person and he sees it as a nice thing to do for his mum, so we are doing it

Your husband sees it as a nice thing to do because it is a nice thing to do. No mystery. The fact that you seem so bemused by it says a lot about you.

You and your husband live three hours away and your MIL lives on her own. You think SIL has "exposed" MIL's fear of living her old age alone - but it is a valid fear for many no matter how fit they are but you live three hours away so will never have to see this. On the other hand MIL might marry a toy boy and cut you all out.

Staryyeyedsurprise, thanks for sharing your opinion. We do live 3 hours away and yet it never stopped SIL and BIL from calling upon us to assist with any work in MIL's house. Never once did we refuse to show up and help. Equally, we never refused to pay for her holidays despite the fact that it's not coming out of just my DH's pay cheque. It's coming out from our shared account and, therefore, our contribution is equal.

SIL does live 5 mins away but that also brings the question as to why the need to move in has arisen now when they want a bigger house rather than when MIL actually needs any help looking after herself and her house.

Yes, of course, the fear of being left alone is real but who said anything about us refusing to help with looking after her when the time comes? Nobody asked us and nobody discussed this with us. What makes you think that we wouldn't consider selling our current house and moving closer to MIL if it came to it? After all, neither my DH, nor I have refused MIL anything this far.

If it doen't work, then they'll have to sort it out!

I can only agree with other posters up thread. This arrangement leaves your MiL (and to some extent BiL & SiL) very exposed.

1. Even if the house is 'gifted', your BiL & SiL will still have to pay stamp.

1. If gifted your MiL will not be able to live in the house without paying market rent. As a previous poster mentioned, HMRC take a very dim view of trying to avoid tax. It will null the 7 year inheritance tax taper relief.

1. The potential outcomes of no.2.

a. Your MiL will not have the costs of any future care met by the LA. b. if your MiL needs specialist care that BiL & SiL cannot meet, then the house would need to be sold/mortgaged to meet the cost of care. Leaving BiL & SiL in a worse position than now. c. Your BiL & SiL will have a large tax bill on the event of your MiL's death. Either through the null or 7yr rule.

1. Your MiL could end up homeless if she falls out with BiL & SiL.

1. Your MiL could still end up in a care/nursing home if BiL & SiL decide they will not/can not care for MiL and then potentially without funds to pay for it.

1. Last but not least - a life time of ill feeling between everybody or complete estrangement. Is this really what your MiL wants?

Even if MiL will not listen to you, is there a family friend that could talk to her?

Disagree with starryeyed

From what you have written, if it is all accurate, I think your MIL's behaviour is outrageous.

I am taking it that she is healthy and of sound mind, if that's incorrect I have more sympathy for her.
If it is correct she's acting dependent to get her needs met and I really wouldn't fish her out of her messes.
SIL sounds a grabbing twat selfish

If the MIL still owns her home and needs care fees, wouldn't the home be sold to pay for the fees unless she has enough cash and the SIL would have to move out and potentially end up with nothing from her DM?

It is nice to pay for her holidays-if it doesn't affect the family.

Or you could say that she's an adult & should pay for her self!

Of course, MIL could also downsize & afford her own holidays!

No more paying for her holidays. Not another penny.

No contributing financially in any way at all.

Don't accept the token amount of cash

It is a totally mad idea which will end in tears. Let them get on with it.

If your mil's name remains on the deeds and she wants them out then they will be homeless.

YY *Viviennemary"

Part of my team deal with deprivation of assets for care home fees and you would be astonished in relation to how many people transfer their property thinking that this will avoid the issue. It doesn't. If the asset remains in MIL's ownership then SIL could find herself with no home at all (the property having been sold to pay fees), and no money to buy anything else having spent the cash on cosmetic improvements. It is also how surprising how quickly after the asset transfer that the person deprived of their asset gets shipped off to a home .

In addition, if MIL has assets worth over £325k then any estate will be liable to inheritance tax (40% over £325k), which if SIL wants to keep the property, she will have to pay.