The question of inheritance

[tiggerkid]

Hi all,

Not sure if this is really the right thread for this but can't think of any other to discuss the topic of inheritance.

Recently my sister-in-law and her husband announced that she is pregnant with her 3rd child and because they need a bigger house to accommodate, they will be moving into my MIL's house, who has a much larger property. Naturally, they understand that this move will raise the issue of inheritance, so they decided to sell their house and give us a small proportion of the value of their house on the grounds that they will still need money to look after MIL and renovate her house to their taste. The house is currently decorated to MIL's taste and, apart from the fact that it's cosmetically old fashioned, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. MIL is certainly happy with it the way it is because she's been doing various work on and off in keeping with her own taste.

At present, MIL doesn't need any looking after. She is in excellent health and is of sound mind, so as far as we are concerned, they only want to move in to extend their living space so to speak. Because they live nearer MIL, they've had plenty of opportunity to talk her into this idea and convince her that it will be paradise on Earth once they all move in together.

While I completely understand and agree that the party looking after ageing parent absolutely needs a bigger share of any inheritance, am I being unreasonable believing that 1) it should be a discussion involving all parties affected by such a decision 2) any agreed value of our share of inheritance should be based on the value of MIL's property rather than the smaller house that my sister-in-law is seeking to move out of? and 3) the question of keeping large sums of money to redecorate the house to sister-in-law's taste should be out of the question because it has nothing to do with looking after ageing parents?

Sorry for the long message but I just find it so unfair that my sis-in-law just decided to move into a bigger house to improve her living conditions and keep 80% of the value of their own house to do whatever they want to do without ever discussing it with us or giving us any opportunity to speak about this. MIL has only mentioned it to us in passing and doesn't want to discuss this any further because she wants to avoid confrontation. The only thing she said was: well you, guys, are financially better off than they are anyway, which made me even more annoyed and upset. If there is a reason why we are financially better off, it is because my husband and I work our butts off while my sister-in-law sits on her backside playing on Facebook all day long. It feels like MIL believes that we need to be punished and penalised for our hard work while my sister-in-law needs to be rewarded for her Facebook efforts.

I know in the end it is MIL's decision and, unfortunately, one that appears to be driven by my sister-in-law exploiting MIL's fear of being left alone in her old age. Although I doubt that we can do much to change the situation, I am struggling to keep discussing this with my husband as I don't want to upset him but I do need some emotional support and understanding, hence this post. Thank you, all.

She sounds similar to my mother. Struggles to read and goes into shutdown mode at any document she isn't completely comfortable with. The only way to discuss anything vaguely difficult with her is face to face and even then if it goes against her already fixed view of the world she'll pretend to listen but ignore what's said.

My guess is that solicitors and carefully written letters is not the way to go.

how come she is illiterate?

There's a fair chance she'll have left school in the 1950s. My mother left school in the early fifties when she was around 12 or 13. I don't think she's ever read a book.

Is it at all possible that your mil has no idea what her house is worth and thinks the money SiL plans to give you from the sale of the smaller house equals a fair split?

Your SiL sounds very dodgy

Well if MIL is illiterate, that might explain the not wanting to involve solicitors?

But does it give a case for her being vulnerable & coerced?

Is she really old enough to have left school without being able read & write?

If she can't read very well, then solicitors would be very careful indeed to make sure she understood what she was signing, and document it carefully.

If she tried to transfer property through the land registry without a solicitor, or made a will with a will maker who did not know, it is very open to abuse and open to dispute, so really not good.

She really needs competent legal advice, and your DH needs to help her realise. She had probably had a lifetime to perfect the stubbornness :(

I expect, if your DH ever gets her to a solicitor, that is it is a good one who is used to explaining things to people who do not understand well without them feeling bad about it, then she will respond well.

Is she really old enough to have left school without being able read & write?

Bob Hoskins got his television break in a programme called On the Move :

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Move_%28TV_series%29

It was broadcast to help break down the stigma of illiteracy in adults who'd left school, often in the '40s, '50s, and '60s. This was the golden period of education when the grammar schools system was guaranteeing standards.

Is it at all possible that your mil has no idea what her house is worth and thinks the money SiL plans to give you from the sale of the smaller house equals a fair split?

Entirely possible NoArmaniNoPunani. DH has asked her if it has occurred to her to have her house valued to understand what she is letting herself in for and to which extent the proposed plan is reasonable and he wasn't talking just about himself. She fobbed him off with some curt response and, as I said, it was really evident she wanted no further debate on this subject.

MIL lives in one of the most desirable areas of her city. In fact, it's probably the most desirable area not only in the city where she lives but some cities nearby too. There is hardly anything in the way of reasonable areas around there, so hardly any people seek to move out from where she is. To be fair, BIL and SIL living 5 minutes away are also in the same area, so their house would be just as desirable except it's considerably smaller. Having bought her current house in 1980s for less than £50K, MIL has absolutely no idea what the property market is doing now, so if BIL and SIL offer her to spend, say, £25 or £30K renovating her property, it will seem like a massive amount of money to her as it will be 50% or more of the total price she paid for her house. You can imagine what she will be thinking!

Yes, I do feel that SIL is being very dodgy and am concerned about where this will end up given the fact that BIL married her after only 3 dates. They seem to be popping out kids like there is no tomorrow but, truly, we don't really know this woman that well seeing as she's only been in our family for just over 2 years.

As I mentioned earlier, in almost 20 years of marriage, I've never brought up the subject of MIL's house or any other inheritance and it never even occurred to me to discuss this with DH at home because MIL is obviously still alive and well! Clearly, not everyone feels that way.

diddl, I don't really know why she is illiterate TBH. Not sure if it's to do with age or something else but she really can't read or write, which complicates things considerably as she is completely in the hands of SIL and BIL.

can you just send round estate agents to value it...when they knock on door she wont know who sent them and will think its just what has to happen and think the other sil called them>

but she will get an estimate there and then?

is everyone british or are there cultrual condiseration

sorry cultural considerations.

Or print out show her similar properties on right move - if estate agent is a step to far.

It does sound very dodgy - but other than try and talk to MIL and get her to take some advice I can't see that you can do much but step away emotionally and financially.

You can look up what similar properties in the area have gone for - she might well be surprised to find out how much property prices have gone up since she bought. If she's just hearing recent headlines about property prices falling, negative equity etc she may have a very skewed idea about the overall change.

is everyone british or are there cultrual condiseration SIL is from another EU country. But it is a developed country, not some dodgy place where it would be acceptable for everyone to be as dodgy as she is being now :) She does BTW has a property in her home country too, which is being rented out and she doesn't mention this in any conversations about MIL's inheritance. Her property is in the capital city of her home country too, so wouldn't be cheap!

AMumInScotland and LemonSquares, I have a pretty decent idea of what MIL's house is worth. Since this conversation has come up, I did take a look at Rightmove and other places. I also have a fair idea of what SIL's house is worth. This only reinforces my not very flattering view of my SIL and BIL unfortunately.

I think that in order to deal with this, you need to put your interests out of the picture completely. This should not be about your inheritance.
The ONLY concern here, is your MIL's welfare, and that is what needs to be addressed. She can do what she wants with her assets, but she needs to fully understand the implications for her future.

all you can do is try and speak to your mil now, however you do that through another family member, getting her to your house etc....

at least you will have tried.

if you are unable to get her to have a reasoned discussion you need to help your dh to emotionally back away and financially too.

This isn't really about inheritance as far as I can see. Your MIL wants to stay in her house until she dies. She wants someone to look after her. Presumably since her divorce the not being able to read and write thing is more problematic for her if she is living on her own. She is probably lonely.
Your BIL and SIL are offering her a chance to get what she wants. That is your MIL's right- she wants to use her assets in the shape of her house to make life better for herself. She shouldn't have to live for the next 20 years in a way she doesn't want to to ensure her sons get an equal inheritance. She probably should consider it but she doesn't sound like the sort of person who cares as long as she gets what she wants.

The problem is that it might not work out. The arrangement has the potential to go tits up. People upthread have pointed out that if she needs care the house can be sold from under them anyway. They may not get on and then the house will have to be sold to pay your BIL and SIL back the money they've put into it. At that point they'll be looking for you to bale them out.

I agree with that. A good solution would be that BIL and SIL don't sell their own house but rent it out so that they gain the benefit of an income from it, can live in a large enough house to fit their growing family, and have a plan B if living with MIL doesn't work out. Such a plan would sensibly involve everyone agreeing that MIL keeps the ownership of her house.

The alternative proposal of "we'll make ourselves houseless and spend the money doing up your house to our taste" looks well dodgy in comparison.

nauticant, I would love it if they just left well enough alone and waited until such time when MIL actually needs some care. IF, indeed, such a situation ever arises. BIL's house has considerably gone up in value since he bought it too, so if he needs to expand his living space to accommodate his growing family, then he needs to sell up and either use savings or take on a mortgage to pay for a larger house, which is what many of us do or would do in a similar situation.

However, the issue is that he is quite happy to be mortgage-free but still wants a bigger house, which is why they dreamed up all this nonsense about caring for MIL now, when she is the one cooking for them. They are definitely not happy with the dated decor of MIL's house and they are clearly very keen to ensure now that once they "pay off" my DH, there will be no come back on this in the future. It is absolutely dodgy from where I am standing but nobody seems to care. DH obviously tried to speak to MIL but to no avail. There is nobody else we can appeal to as MIL isn't on speaking terms with either of her two sisters.

I can't imagine BIL and SIL wanting to listen to anything that seems sensible to so many people because they are the pair, who came up with this grand plan that so greatly benefits them and them alone. Because they are playing on MIL's fears of old age, she is highly unlikely to ever kick them out, so they will definitely end up masters of her house, probably her savings and everything else she has managed to accumulate in her lifetime. There has been no mention of her savings this far but, as someone has already pointed out, I am sure that will be drained out by them too. I have already seen that happen with my mum's brother whom I have already mentioned too. May he rest in peace as he is long gone now.

What annoys me to no end is that BIL and DH didn't really have a very close relationship before, and I worked so hard for the last 15 years to build one and bring them closer. I am very hurt to see that, evidently, nothing I've done really worked and BIL obviously doesn't mind screwing his brother. There were occasions when he'd find some cheaper car parts near where we live and, just to save £20, would ask us to drive somewhere to pick up those parts and find him some cheap mechanics where we are to install these parts, which we would always do. We also often picked him and his family from the airport after their holidays as they developed a habit of planning their holidays such that they come back on Saturdays, so that we could pick them up. This would involve 1.5 hours drive one way for us but we've been doing all of that and more for the sake of this so called relationship but I can see now that actually it was all a fool's errand designed to save them money rather than something based on the warmth of love between two siblings. I really do feel like a very-very stupid woman at the moment, who let herself become a doormat.

It seems that MIL treats the two brothers very differently. Has this always been the case? If BIL is the golden boy, then no matter what you say will make any difference to her. It's clear she does not want to hear anything from your DH or you.

I know it's hard but personally, I would leave them to it. Your MIL sounds just as selfish as your SIL and probably deserve one another. It seems that none of them have thought through the implications of this move. And there is a good chance that it will go very pear shaped in the future.

If you do get money from your BIL and SIL from the sale of the house, put it aside and don't touch it, as you may need to help sort out things in the future.

CoolCadbury, BIL is a bit of a golden boy and MIL definitely seems rather more fond of him than of my DH. DH says that's always been the case as she always treated him differently starting from the expectation that he would do more house work as a child to everything else later on. There has always been clear favouritism as MIL also treats BIL's children very differently. She also does buy gifts for BIL's birthdays. Over the years, I tried to brush this aside and think that it could because they live nearer and it's easier for her to pop by and see them but then I realised that actually there is no excuse for the fact that she wouldn't even call DH on his birthdays or me when my dad passed away, and I stopped looking for ways to justify her behaviour. I am finding it very difficult to like her at the moment or care about what happens to her but I do realise that it may be my personal hurt speaking rather than something compassionate in me.

Yes the renting out would be a good idea.

they could use that money to do MILs place up!

They are all so focused on what they want, I don't think that they've thought it through at all.

Will MIL always feel that it is her house & treat it so?
What about visitors for example-will MIL have to disappear to her room/stay out of the kitchen//

diddl, the visitors is something that definitely has not been considered. For instance, we tend to come up and stay for few days every Christmas to spend some time with MIL. Until now, this has never been an issue because we stayed at MIL's house and she lives alone. There are 4 bedrooms in the house. We occupied 2 of them: one was my DH's room and one is spare bedroom for our son. We also come up during weekends sometimes with the same arrangement.

If BIL and SIL move in with their ever expanding brood, it will be very interesting indeed. Firstly, there will be no spare bedrooms. Secondly, I doubt that they will want us to occupy the already limited space then. Everyone will get on one another's nerves and I am sure it will be made clear that we aren't welcome to stay there soon enough.

MIL's friends have been known to come over whenever she wished to see them too and although they don't tend to stay overnight, they have always been welcome. I doubt that BIL and SIL will be quite so happy to see some grannies hang out in their house!

It is an ill conceived idea on many fronts but they are so blinded by their greed that they are either not thinking about it at all or simply want to be in denial!

I really have no idea why this thread is still running, tbh.

It's nothing to do with you, you are owed no inheritance (especially not before she's even dead!) Neither is SIL.

Butt out and leave it to your husband, his brother and their mother.

Four bedrooms-which presumably SIL will want all of in a few years time?

Where will MIL be sleeping then??!!

diddl, I honestly have no idea. Perhaps, they intend to convert her dining room to a bedroom seeing as she never uses it anyway but don't quote me on that as I really don't know.