AIBU to have no idea what British values are

[PeachyParisian]

Can anyone enlighten me?
Just seen this and I'm not sure what makes a value British

www.bbc.com/news/education-27777421

How about They start by modelling those British Values when deal

No idea he went to Robert Gordon's.

Kind of makes it worse!

Sorry - when dealing with school staff? Lead by example and all that!

I agree that whilst it's hard to define British values, it's a bit easier to point out what are not British values.

For example:

Politeness and 'good manners' used in situations where many across Europe think us barking mad? - British;
Forced segregation of boys/girls or men/women - un-British;
'Playing by the rules' - British;
Bribery - un-British (yes, it might happen but by exception - it's not a custom, yet...);
A begrudging, somewhat reluctance to tolerate things outside our experience or comfort zone - British;
'Celebration' of difference and ecstatic rapture at minority/rare/abnormal interests or practices - un-British;
Self-deprecation/cynicism - British;
'Showing off' - un-British.

Etc...

British values, thinking we're superior because we colonised so much of the world in the past & have not been invaded in modern times?

PeachyParisian when you say "civilised state", you underestimate the fact that many, many places are not really "states" and that they are not really "civilised" in the sense that rule of law has not been achieved. So from that POV alone, the UK really is seen as a bit of a "beacon" - even if you disagree with this. Some former Yugoslav "states" are a heart-beat away from being gangster-run fiefdoms - but they have beautifully written constitutions which guarantee the kind of rights you would like to see - problem is, they don't necessarily fit with local values. Just the fact that our mainland hasn't been invaded for 1000 years appears to give weight and solidity to our image abroad.

. Humour, animals, James Bond, privilege, pomp and bollocks. From the Olympics.

I just don't get this? Surely it's religion in schools that's caused all the problems. Let's make education secular then we don't have to teach anyone any vague non descript British Values.

Agree with the caring/sentimentality about animals; we'd readily stop an animal's suffering but not a humans

But Lumpy, if we abandon the CofE or even Catholic schools then thats unBritish as we are a Christian nation. rolls eyes

(FTR I completely agree with you)

I think that basically British values equate to what is set out in the European Convention on Human Rights - i.e. they aren't exclusively British at all. But you would never get Gove to admit that there is even a massive area of overlap, due to the fact that he is desperate to retrieve some of the UKIP vote.

Icimoi Tue 10-Jun-14 18:07:16
I think that basically British values equate to what is set out in the European Convention on Human Rights

Tell that to UKIP voters... this is one of the things that the party seems to hate the most.

Of all the things that annoyed me and disgusted me about what was coming out of the UKIP propaganda machine this was the one that annoyed me the most as it is so fundamentally against what the UK means to me in terms of its values yet they made a huge fuss about standing for British Values.

TBH, if Cameron comes out and end up having this debate and the hypocrisy of the above comes out, then I for one will be very pleased. However I have fear it will descend into farce pretty quickly.

What problems can be blamed on England's CofE and RC schools??!!

Actually, the British mainland has been invaded within the last 1000 years - on a few occasions. British history didn't start in 1066

TrueGent the point is more that if you decide that one religion is 'better' or more 'British' than the other then you have an issue.

You can not retain one and then ban the other.

Not and be consistent with values that encompass equality. Its double standards.

Can you imagine the outcry if they tried to abolish CofE and Catholic schools?

Pork sausages.

Not sure the Battle of Fishguard is enough to rock how the UK is viewed from the outside! But I take the point.

weegiemum Gove is Scottish - born in Edinburgh, brought up in Aberdeen by Labour supporting parents (his dad was even a local councillor). You wouldn't know it at all! His accent in particular is a real mystery, I've known plenty of Scots who went to the big private schools in Scotland and nearly all of them have a proper Scottish accent. Wonder where he lost it and if he carries a massive chip on his shoulder? Might explain why he has such ridiculous notions.

I'm English not British so that's me out of the Britishness discussion.

"TrueGent the point is more that if you decide that one religion is 'better' or more 'British' than the other then you have an issue.

You can not retain one and then ban the other.

Not and be consistent with values that encompass equality. Its double standards.

Can you imagine the outcry if they tried to abolish CofE and Catholic schools?"

Who says we can't retain one and ban the other? Why on earth do we need to ban schools for which there is no evidence of any problem? Its not double standards - its being consistent - problems with a school? Close it down.

Who is trying to abolish CofE or Catholic schools?

By what twisted logic must equality be held above all other ideas such as justice, freedom or even common sense? Is this how far we have come?

Then why no just close 'problem' schools? Why make this into a debate about British values at all?

I don't think saying ' is a British value' means you believe only Brita have those values. Other cultures have a similar attitude to equality before the law, or race/gender tolerance, or religious freedom, or even queuing. All you're saying when you talk about them being 'British' values is that they obtain in British culture, for the most part. I don't see what's wrong with that. I know a lot of people are weirdly hung up on the Empire and worry that if the UK expresses any kind of collective national identity we'll be unable to stop ourselves steaming out there to enslave us some forriners but this is patently absurd.

For my tuppence worth I'd characterise humility, diffidence, scepticism, courtesy, and tolerance as English cultural traits, along with a libertarian streak, a sly sentimentalism, and a tendency to odd obsessions. I'd say jingoism is largely a thing of the past.

What problems can be blamed on England's CofE and RC schools??!!

Well, most practise religious discrimination with regard to their entry policies, for one thing. Which IS a problem if you are not of the right religion, and desperately need a school place.

Obviously a different kind of problem from the Birmingham schools situation, but I agree that it's difficult to allow some religions to have the privilege of running schools their way and not others. So probably better just to make all schools secular and leave religion for outside of school hours.

I'd argue that the most distinctive value is that we have a very strong sense of personal liberty which is not necessarily found in other cultures (we gave it to the Americans btw). So we both consider ourselves to have both the right to act with freedom and the right not to be encroached upon by others.

This results in things like general antipathy to very restrictive religious practices - e.g. we've evolved a fairly anodyne state religion where almost anything goes because that is the only kind we are collectively prepared to live under.

It also gave us things like habeas corpus and limits on the powers of kings well before other European countries. It's a fairly fundamental part of the way our society and constitution developed.

The very fact we are debating this is down to those very values

Got it in one

Nobody pretends that our way of doing things is perfect, or that other nations don't have good systems too - but at least it's a fair attempt to get it right

I'd be interested to see if the pooh-poohers would still be quite so dismissive if they'd tried living in certain less liberal societies