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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Travelling with HB abroad however teenage daughter not keen.

235 replies

MaartjeB · 02/06/2014 13:49

How can I convince my daughter to come with HB and myself without her constantly saying : I'm not going!
We'll be going to UAE and there are some amazing places over there.
Of course there might be some negative points but I like to believe the positive points outbalance them.
Does anyone have experience of travelling with a teenage daughter?
She has her friends here etc....It's a big chance . How to make moving abroad exciting for her?

OP posts:
SquirrelledAway · 03/06/2014 09:34

I was also going to suggest either a friendly boarding school in the UK or OP's home country (sorry, I'm assuming that it might be Netherlands?) or if you could come to arrangement with friends so that your daughter could stay with them during term time and come out visit during holidays. At 14 it is getting to be an important time for school.

MeltedLolly · 03/06/2014 09:34

and just wanted to clarify something else too... teenage drinking and public snogging can be problematic in Dubai, they are technically illegal. But the worst you are going to encounter when wearing a crop top and hotpants is the tiny chance that a security guard in a mall stops you and asks you to cover shoulder and thighs. But the chance of that is absolutely miniscule based on the sheer number of extremely scantily clad expat (teens and adults) parading around Dubai.

SquirrelledAway · 03/06/2014 09:36

Oops, a few missing words in that post.

pleaseaffixstamps · 03/06/2014 10:34

Happily for the UAE, the opinions of a bunch of sheltered, insular, frightened middle-class suburbanites on a site like Mumsnet really don't appear to be making a dent in its economic, cultural and social progress. The UAE is undoubtedly better off without their post-colonial bitterness.

sunclassique, I'm a working-class, urban immigrant. Am I allowed an opinion on this?

One of the many reasons I wouldn't take a teenage girl to the UAE is that I'd hate for my kid to grow up with the kinds of extreme income inequalities there. Of course there are pretty extreme income inequalities in London, too, but most people bumble along without encountering the super-rich much. I have friends who took their kids abroad to a place with very extreme income disparity, where they were near the top of the tree just by virtue of being middle-class professionals, and oh dear god, the "you are just a servant" attitudes of the kids when they came back. (I don't even blame my friends, as they were pretty horrified about it themselves.)

Oh, and PassAFist - "suddenly every housewife is an expert in women's rights"? Plenty of "housewives" are experts in women's rights.

SybilRamkin · 03/06/2014 11:13

The UAE is an oasis of peace, calm and tolerance, in a region not known for any of these three qualities

Tolerance? What planet (or luxury gated community) are you living on? UAE law states a rape conviction can only be secured after a confession or as the result of testimony from four adult male witnesses to the crime. Why would anyone take a teenaged girl to such an intolerant and sexist country to live?

mummytime · 03/06/2014 12:15

My DD wouldn't want to go, she is 15 and would argue about the human rights record and treatment of women.

OP I suggest you discuss it with your DD. If you are definitely going, you need to explain the only two possible options are: her going with you, having an adventure and going to an international school OR her staying here/your home country and going to a boarding school. Then you might get the most honest reaction - not just based on "I don't want to leave my friends/home town" etc.

sezamcgregor · 03/06/2014 13:06

Why don't you have a look on Expat Forum

Good luck - she's probably thinking about leaving friends/family/everything she knows and will need a good argument to go. Speak to her about her concerns

MeltedLolly · 03/06/2014 13:44

One of the many reasons I wouldn't take a teenage girl to the UAE is that I'd hate for my kid to grow up with the kinds of extreme income inequalities there. Of course there are pretty extreme income inequalities in London, too, but most people bumble along without encountering the super-rich much.

wouldn't the attitude of avoiding extreme income inequalities rule out all or most of the non-western world? India, China, South America, Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, the whole of Africa, much (all) of the middle east.... In all of these places, the difference between the "haves and have nots" is just as much if not more noticeable than the UAE.

I think you'd be limiting yourself more or less to Western Europe, North America, Australia and NZ.

While I kind of see your point, we all have to learn at some point that the world is not an "equal" place, and the younger they learn the better. Learning doesn't have to be negative and involve spoiling and pampering. You can live amongst income inequality and still provide excellent opportunities for your children to learn and grow from those very inequalities. Just the same as you could do living in an affluent area of the UK.

I have friends who took their kids abroad to a place with very extreme income disparity, where they were near the top of the tree just by virtue of being middle-class professionals, and oh dear god, the "you are just a servant" attitudes of the kids when they came back. (I don't even blame my friends, as they were pretty horrified about it themselves.)

I'm sorry, but your friends are to blame if their children have that attitude. Kids are kids and while it may not be unusual for them to try it on, if their parents are on the ball then the kids don't develop the attitude you speak of. I've yet to see an expat kid with an entitled attitude, that the parents weren't to blame for. The amount of adult expats with a superior attitude anywhere with lots of expats is shocking. And yes, it does of course rub off on the kids.

pleaseaffixstamps · 03/06/2014 14:04

I think you'd be limiting yourself more or less to Western Europe, North America, Australia and NZ.

Well, not really. If my DS went for a year to his relatives in India, he'd be in a village up north. There's income disparity there, sure, but not on the scale of Dubai. If you go and live in the UAE as an expat, the chances are you will be living with other expats in a city, with all that entails.

MeltedLolly · 03/06/2014 14:44

Well, not really. If my DS went for a year to his relatives in India, he'd be in a village up north. There's income disparity there, sure, but not on the scale of Dubai. If you go and live in the UAE as an expat, the chances are you will be living with other expats in a city, with all that entails.

but if you are going to take a country like India, with HUGE income disparities, then cut out all the bad bits, like you're doing here, limiting India to a remote village in the north, well...fair is fair, you can do the same in the UAE. There are plenty of areas in the UAE, in fact the majority of the UAE is not gated expat communities. There are plenty of areas where the housing is very down to earth and very normal. Very many expats lead very normal lives in the UAE, in fact the majority I know don't live the life of excess I keep hearing about on here.

And honestly, when getting into discussions about the visible differences between haves and have nots.... India is never a good example to use when you're coming to the discussion with your viewpoint. India is.... (puts very polite hat on)... one of the worst places for squalor and utter poverty existing side by side with undreamed of wealth and excess, and it's a lot more corrupt than the UAE.

pleaseaffixstamps · 03/06/2014 14:56

I know that about India. I wouldn't want DS to live in a city in India for that very reason. (Although we wouldn't be at the gated community end of the spectrum, and if DS ended up in a swish hotel it'd be because he was serving the G&Ts...)

pleaseaffixstamps · 03/06/2014 14:57

And I'm betting the OP isn't going to be living in a little UAE town with her DH and her DS.

MeltedLolly · 03/06/2014 15:23

I know that about India. I wouldn't want DS to live in a city in India for that very reason. (Although we wouldn't be at the gated community end of the spectrum, and if DS ended up in a swish hotel it'd be because he was serving the G&Ts...)

And I'm betting the OP isn't going to be living in a little UAE town with her DH and her DS.

You don't have to live in a little UAE town, not to live in a gated expat community. Those two are the extreme ends of the spectrum. You can live in the hustle and bustle of Dubai city, and live in a very down to earth way, in a down to earth community. Do you want me to start rattling of parts of the city of Dubai where can live a city life, a normal life, and not live in an expat gated community? I could, but I doubt the names will mean anything to you because you probably think Dubai starts at Burj Khalifa and ends at Mall of the Emirates.

Have you ever been to Dubai? And if you have, have you ever went further inland then MOE?

There are far more normal places to live in Dubai than there are expat gated communities.

sunclassique · 03/06/2014 16:31

Poor MeltedLolly- you're a sane, reasonable, informed voice, but you're not getting anywhere with your points- people really don't want to see your point of view. desertmum also writes a lot of sense. Not that this will make any difference.

Again, the sheer ignorance is staggering, as evidenced by responses to my post.

sashh:
"Why are you paying school fees? Don't you want your "well-rounded" children mixing with the locals?"
sashh: You're very ignorant and ill-informed on this issue. While that's undoubtedly a proper put-down in Putney, and you probably thought you were very clever to think it up, it just shows that you've no idea how society or school works in the UAE. Only Emirati children are allowed to go to Emirati schools, so I have no choice but to pay school fees. Plus, it's not as if I'm "too snobby" to let my children mix with locals or any other nationalities (as you imply)- the international schools have every cultural group and nationality of child imaginable here (including many Emirati children whose parents want them to have an international education)- which is an excellent thing.

sashh You seem to be very interested in what colour my "maid" is. For what it's worth, our childminder (who isn't a maid and doesn't live with us) is the same "colour" as my husband. Does that make us racists? Entitled expats? Is it any of your f*ing business what colour my family is relative to the people we employ to help look after our small children while we are at work? Would you ask that of a working mum in London? Would you think it was unfair if she earned more than her childminder and use it as a snide way to undermine her views?

SybilRamkin:
I don't live in a luxury gated community. I live in an apartment building filled with ordinary families from all over the world- with an emphasis on families from the subcontinent and the Arab world, and only a handful of (mostly Eastern) Europeans.

When I was talking about peace, calm and tolerance, I meant in the context of war, religious freedom and the ability to practise different religions openly, terrorism and violence; concepts all too familiar to those who live in this region, many of whom have fled to Dubai to escape unimaginable hardship or persecution in their home countries. But of course that counts for nothing compared to your well-researched (ahem) arguments about UAE law (let's not let any of that get in the way of a good headline).

pleaseaffixstamps: I guess I'm spoiling the party here. I'm not at either end of your neat wealth spectrum. I can recommend villages near Al Ain or Ras al Khaimah if you'd like to check out the UAE version of a one horse town, but I myself live with my family in the centre of Dubai, (and the centre of the spectrum).

As for the poster who based her opinion of the UAE on four days spent with a cousin who lived in a hotel, well, what can I say about that level of in-depth research? Why listen to me or to desertmum or MeltedLolly when you can have informed opinions like hers?

Actually, to those of you who are saying so vehemently that the UAE is a bad place to live/a horrendous place to bring a teenage girl, never… having… been... here: do you think we're lying? Do you all honestly think we'd bother posting all our arguments in favour of living here if it was even remotely as bad as the sensationalist headlines? What, are we being paid by the UAE government to drum up propaganda, or something?

Why is it that on this thread people who have never even set foot on UAE soil are more entitled to have an opinion on this country than the people who have lived here for years?

I'm only bloody bothering to type this because I hate ignorance and bigotry. However, I can see I too am wasting my time. I've just come in from work so I'm going to set about getting dinner ready. (Funny, I've hollered for my supposed army of maids but there doesn't seem to be anything happening…)

mummytime · 03/06/2014 16:53

sunclassique - I personally wouldn't want to live in the middle east, just as DH really doesn't want to live in Luton. The probably are prejudiced opinions, but its fine - so far neither of us has had any reason to live in the ME or Luton.
However for most MNers the people they have met who have lived in the ME have been "expats" of a type who do have maids and so on. We have also in the UK all heard horror stories (and as an ex-colonial power, tend to feel guilty).
I have worked in places where I was one of the few who hadn't had a stint in the ME. Those who had, had all earnt a lot of money and tended to behave in a way I found a bit shocking in relation to their host country (home brew and stills).
Also on MN we do sometimes get an "expat" come on who seems to genuinely have shocking opinions. There was one recently living in the far east, who couldn't understand how mothers could work in the UK without "cheap maids". That is one source of prejudice to those living in the middle east.

sunclassique · 03/06/2014 16:55

Oh, maartjeB, sorry the thread hasn't been as helpful as it could be for your situation. I'm not sure if this is allowed (sorry MNHQ if it isn't and do delete if you must) but the website expatwoman.com is based in the UAE and has a fantastic forum with lots of very helpful people who live here and can answer questions about every possible aspect of living here.

I think your daughter would like it here. The teenage girls I know here are happy, bright, confident young women with varied interests and healthy lifestyles (if the amount of sports events their parents attend is anything to go by!). The parents only really seem to get worried about them when they leave here to go to university...

pleaseaffixstamps · 03/06/2014 18:16

Sure, sunnclassique, we're all ignorant and bigoted. That must be it.

I'm sure the UAE can be utterly delightful if you have a decent income, and you aren't an Indian indentured servant, or a domestic worker, and if everything goes smoothly. Maybe you can even come back without your children having turned into little princesses and little princes by the good life. I have friends who go there regularly, and they do enjoy it, a great deal. Not everything goes smoothly all the time, though, and - while god knows I have my issues with the way the police and courts in the UK deal with violence against women - I can't say I'd ever want any baby girl of mine to get into trouble in the UAE.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23381448

MeltedLolly · 03/06/2014 18:41

sunclassique, I don't get chip on the shoulder "whatever it is" that so many Brits have with the UAE. I could move to India or Hong Kong or Singapore or Shang Hai or Kuala Lumpur, live like Queen of Sheba with my every whim catered to in my gated community and maid and gardener, and all I get are compliments about how adventurous I am to almost be slumming it, lol, if only they knew!

Move to Dubai however, live in a modest apartment building in Al Barsha, and the snide remarks start.

I have a friend who lives in International City (near Dragon Mart and the sewage works) and, well that's far from luxurious (and stinks like hell because of sewage works), but she gets the same put downs about her perceived lifestyle. One couple I know live in Al Qusais (between Garhoud and Sharjah?) none of his family would believe how modest they lived, lol, till they came out for a holiday, spent one night with them in Al Qusais, then checked into a Bur Dubai hotel the next today, quite disgusted, as "if we had wanted to stay somewhere like this we could have stayed at home". Although it's only a 5 minute drive from the airport, and it's very much a bustling part of the city, it's not what the Daily Mail portrays.

Maartje, do as Sunclassique says and go to the expatwoman.com forum. It will give you a far more accurate view of expat life in Dubai than you will get in here. At least all of the people answering you on the EW forum actually live (or have lived) there. Most people responding to you here have no idea at all about Dubai except what's written in the Daily Mail (a tabloid paper... de telegraaf-achtige krant in the UK) or they have been there for a holiday (even then it tends to be a short stopover of 2-4 nights) and never get further than the tourist traps.

Theodorous · 03/06/2014 18:42

Don't feed the provincial googlers, it isn't worth the energy.

MeltedLolly · 03/06/2014 18:55

Sure, sunnclassique, we're all ignorant and bigoted. That must be it.

so it's ok for you to sweep the class disparity in India under the carpet because your son would be going to a remote village in the north, but when people like sunclassique or myself tell you the reality of Dubai is not that different to the reality of India... we're talking rubbish? Like India, you can avoid the massive disparity in incomes, but you don't want to hear reality, do you?

I'm sure the UAE can be utterly delightful if you have a decent income, and you aren't an Indian indentured servant, or a domestic worker, and if everything goes smoothly.

Just like India is ever so kind to it's lower classes.? Is that what you mean? Like India is a great country to live in without a decent income? Get a grip woman and think about what you're saying!

Maybe you can even come back without your children having turned into little princesses and little princes by the good life.

Like expat kids in India aren't susceptible to the "expat brat" syndrome? Go to a gated community filled with expats in Mumbai or Banglaore, then get back to me on that one.

I can't say I'd ever want any baby girl of mine to get into trouble in the UAE

and I wouldn't want my baby girls to get gang raped and then hung on a tree like happened in India just last week, for the umpteenth time with these gang rapes & murders, but then again, I don't judge countries by their hideous exceptions the way you do. I really like India. But it is FAR from perfect when it comes to its has's and has nots. Far worse than Dubai. And its corrupt to the core too. Which is thankfully not an issue in Dubai.

pleaseaffixstamps · 03/06/2014 18:59

When did I sweep the class disparities of India under the carpet? And no, I wouldn't be all that thrilled to take a daughter to live in the village (not least because I know too many women who came here to get out of the goddamn village), whereas I'd be more relaxed about DS.

I think it's hilarious that you are excoriating people her for talking about Dubai when they don't know it, when you seem to be happy to do the same thing with India.

MeltedLolly · 03/06/2014 18:59

Don't feed the provincial googlers, it isn't worth the energy

ain't that the truth, lol.

It can be difficult to defend Dubai.... but talk about an open goal... getting on Dubai's case by using INDIA as an example of where all is right and fair and equal (and women friendly!).

pleaseaffixstamps · 03/06/2014 19:00

INDIA as an example of where all is right and fair and equal (and women friendly!)

You are being a bit economical with the actualité, there. You do realise people can read both our past posts, yes?

MeltedLolly · 03/06/2014 19:03

When did I sweep the class disparities of India under the carpet?

when you decided it was ok for you because your son would be going to a remote vaillage in India, away from the cities, yet you won't believe that Dubai has plenty of normal areas and normal lifestyle expats too.

I think it's hilarious that you are excoriating people her for talking about Dubai when they don't know it, when you seem to be happy to do the same thing with India

eh, excuse me, I have lived in India. Both in Bangalore and Mumbai. Just like I have lived in Dubai. I actually only slag off places I know, unlike you who just reads the Daily Mail before going of on a bigoted rant.

MeltedLolly · 03/06/2014 19:06

You are being a bit economical with the actualité, there. You do realise people can read both our past posts, yes?

Oh yes, pray tell how? I never filled in a list of countries I have lived in. In the same way, although I am a Brit, I don't actually live in the UK.

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