annoyed vegan mum

[PairOfTerrors]

Hi everyone

Something happened today and I am still wondering how I should have approached it. I am fully ready for people to say IWU, but would love some insight either way.

My twin DS' are in year 1 and a little boy joined at the beginning of the academic year who has been raised raw vegan (only child, single parent family.) He gets on well with DS' and I don't know the mum too well but I've heard through the grapevine that she has been under a lot of stress lately for various reasons. We got chatting a few days ago and she mentioned how she desperately just wanted a day to herself, to clear her head etc, so I offered to take her DS for today (Bank holiday) to give her some alone time.

She always gives DS his own snacks for parties etc, and she told everyone quite early on about her way of eating, just so things were clear and people didn't start asking her lots of questions. Her and DS only really eat raw, uncooked foods such as fruits, vegetables nuts and seeds. She also said they don't eat bread (I am not too clued up on raw veganism so am not 100% sure on the reasoning)

Anyhow I was out doing the food shop yesterday and noticed some yummy looking veggie burgers. DH and I are not vegetarian but I grew up with a vegetarian sister so my DM would often buy veggie options so I actually really love veggie burgers and we often have them. They came in packs of 6 so I thought I'd buy them, give one to (let's call him James) and then DH, my 2 and I could have 4 (with one leftover) for dinner. I also bought lots of nice fruit to make him a fruit salad (we are usually very boring with fruit, just apples, oranges, bananas, the occasional pear!) but I got some mangoes, pineapple and a few other things. I knew his mum would pack him a lunch but I thought, just to take the stress off a little, I'd get him a few things also.

So I phone her a couple of hours later to confirm everything was still on and she said it was and that she'd make him a lunch. I told her about what I bought and she seemed really touched and said she'd pack him some carrot sticks and hummus too (his favourite). So James comes round today and come lunch time, he has his veggie burger with a side of sweet corn, peas and some avocado, with his fruit salad for afters. My 2 were having cheese ham and salad sandwiches and a yogurt after. James takes one look at his meal, looks at my kids' sandwiches, and refuses to eat his. Now I KNOW he likes veggie burgers, it's what he seems to often have at parties and when I spoke to his mum on the phone I double checked, and I told her that it's not a problem if he doesn't like them as I'm sure DH and I could finish off the spare one out of the pack of 6 (so I really don't feel like she felt obliged to say yes he does like them just to be polite). I'm sure she'd have said "actually sorry but he's not really keen on them..." or whatever. But as I say I have definitely seen him eat them before and I was assured they would be fine.

I noticed he wasn't eating (he nibbled on the carrot sticks and avocado) so asked if he wasn't hungry. He said that he was, but could he please have a sandwich. I told him that he had his veggie burger instead etc etc and he just said he didn't want it and would rather have a sandwich. I said that I don't think his mummy would want him having a sandwich and yada yada (basically trying to convince him to eat his burger. I also asked him if there was anything he wanted instead) and he was adamant he wanted a sandwich. I tried ringing his mum to get her opinion, and perhaps she could speak to him but it went straight to voicemail. I tried twice more in the space of 30 minutes and texted her but still no reply. It all seemed strange because as I say he always has his own snacks at parties and I've never seen him complain or demand to eat what the other children are. He doesn't know any different so why now did he suddenly want some bread too? He was clearly hungry but determined he didn't want to eat his burger or even his fruit salad. At this point I'm thinking a) give him some bread, although it may piss mum off or b) let him go hungry which is firstly mean and secondly would his mum be angry and actually say something well "so he hasn't eaten all day? Could you not have just given him a little bread??"

Thinking that the latter would be worse, I caved and gave him one slice of bread which he had with his avocado and some tomato. He scoffed it down and 2 minutes later they ran off to carry on playing. Anyway fast forward to pick up time and I told his mum he had refused to eat any of his food so I gave him some bread. She immediately looked horrified, like I had told her I had murdered a kitten. She said "oh...really? Ok then...was there nothing else he could have had instead of the burger?" I told her that I had offered to make him other things (hell I even had whipped my phone out and googled "raw vegan recipes for kids!" and read off a few things but he insisted no...he wanted the bread. I told her I didn't want him going hungry and she said "well ok then, you do realise (in a sort of half laughy scoffy type voice) that that's the first time he's eaten bread??"

Now as I say I am not clued up on raw veganism. I understand it is very strict, far more so than "regular" veganism, but hell it's not like I had given him a hotdog or even a piece of cheese! It was a slice of bread..I don't mean to be disrespectful of someone else's lifestyle but I really didn't think she'd react like that and like I said earlier, I was worried that she'd be annoyed at me for letting him go hungry and actually suggest that I could have given him just a little piece. Oh and she hadn't answered her phone as it was dead and she had left her charger at work.

So they left with her pretty pissed off with me. And now I'm just wondering how in the wrong I was, or what I should have done. I know nothing can be changed now and I apologised but what would you have done? Is she right to be pissed off? Am I right to be pissed off?

If you fed a child on chocolate and biscuits thus requiring them to have supplements to make up the shortfall the authorities might have something to say about that, feeding a child such a restricted vegan diet is on the same level as that IMO

Do you have any idea what vegans and raw vegans eat?

Unless you have in depth knowledge and know fir a fact that the mum hasn't done any kind of research or does anything to ensure he gets the right balance, then you really shouldn't throw around the abuse word based on what little idea of what vegans eat, that you have.

What ding said is just ridiculous. Dds having a guest oner and your own child waiting an hour for a frickin yogurt is not going to hurt him. The amount of sugar in a yogurt it would probably do him good to not have one on one day.

And there's a word we have."NO"

Useful when kids are asking fir stuff they shouldn't have. Use it. And heaven forbid use it on your own child who needs some serious discipline if waiting an hour til his friend has gone for a yogurt is something that fills you with do much dread that giving a dairy intolerant friend one is a better option.

And cut the "it's just bread"

To you it may be just bread. To this boy it was a new food and shouldn't have been given out just because it's an every day item to the rest of you.

And quit with the faddy diet slurs. If someone feels better not eating something and choses to keep it out of their diet so they continue to feel better, is a good idea for them!! And they shouldn't need a list if medical conditions with then just to make it "acceptable" to accomodate.

As I said- just cook to accommodate a guest, and give that to everyone. Problem solved.

We'll that's what I would do :o

wannaBe
If you fed a child on chocolate and biscuits thus requiring them to have supplements to make up the shortfall the authorities might have something to say about that, feeding a child such a restricted vegan diet is on the same level as that IMO.

The child wasn't supposed to eat bread. It's not an item which is nutritionally essential. You don't know how his diet stacks up from a nutritional point of view, based on him not eating bread and having a generally raw vegan diet.

Re: the general point being made about the burger being processed/cooked. My understanding of raw diets is that often people aspire to make a percentage of their diet raw, rather than necessarily 100%.

WannaBe you do know that it's possible to be omnivorous and malnourished? There are people who might be lacking e.g. Vitamin D, B12 (for example, those who have pernicious anaemia), might need additional folic acid etc.

nope I stick to my "it's only a slice of bread," line. If the child had actual intolerances then I would expect the parent to have told the op in case he came into contact with any such foods that he was intolerant to which let's face it if they're every day foods is easily done, because in that instance the op would have needed to take different action. But coming into contact with a food for the first time is really not that big a deal - it really isn't. It's only in the past ten/fifteen years or so that people have become so obsessed with the hideously adverse reactions to food when tried for the first time which in truth really aren't that common.

The op tried to accommodate the child's diet, he refused what he'd been given, and given how quickly he asked for and devoured the bread I suspect it probably wasn't actually the first time he'd been given any. But the op told the mum what had happened - again, something which many probably wouldn't given the reaction.

Veganism is a lifestyle choice. People are free to choose to live like that, but need to realise that not everyone, possibly not even their own children subscribe to that lifestyle choice, and should be free to make their own choices about what they want to eat even at a young age.

Why? Why would medical history be needed. Surely one should be able to trust an adult that if asked not to give bread, they wouldn't give bread.

As I said, cook to fit the guest's requirements, whatever they are, and everyone eats that. Why is this in any way difficult?.

IMO you are wrapping up your intolerance for dietary choices, lack of inclination to cater for people and limited understanding, in some false idea that kids should choose themselves.

Exactly wannaBe-and from the child's reaction he will be eating what he chooses -probably a lot as he gets more adept at keeping under his mother's radar.
If he had a medical reason the mother would have said. It is ridiculous to say that it is dangerous to give bread to a child for the first time-they eat lots of food for the first time. Even as an adult I try things for the first time and don't live in dread of something terrible happening!
If it was that important to the mother she would have kept her mobile with her.
Probably she is clueless as to how much swapping goes on with packed lunches! I doubt he had never had bread-it is more likely he hadn't had bread with her knowledge.

And I repeat. Why should a parent have to divulge their child's private medical status in order for things not to be given despite previously being asked not to?

Why?

Do you know how hard it is for people to get a diagnosis?? Many just eliminate things themselves without medical back up because drs don't alwYs have any idea. And Rhys just proves others take no notice if anything unless an Epi pen is required. And it's wrong.

And this.

because there is a difference between "I don't want my child eating bread because he has an allergy/intolerance/could have an adverse reaction" (in which case of course medical history is required), and "I don't want my child eating bread because that is my choice."

If someone wants to be a vegetarian/vegan/fruitarian/ then fine, eat veg/fruit/whatever of your choosing in your own home. But you do not IMO have the right to make that choice for your child when they are in a different setting purely because it is your lifestyle choice.

It is completely selfish to expect that children should grow up eating only what you eat even when allowed to make independent choices, and naïve to think that they do exactly that.
If the child chooses to eat a vegan diet fine. If they want to have a slice of bread/cake/biscuit/try a sausage then they shouldn't be prevented from doing so. And while you may be able to dictate to a five year old, as they get older and more independent you simply cannot continue to enforce that kind of regime on a child.

If you take out the diet restrictions imposed by the parent, or possible allergies and look at the basic problem, it boils down to the fact that OP did something the parent had expressly asked her not to.

If anyone was in that situation, they would be annoyed. "I told my friend/nanny/MIL/nursery/childminder not to give ds 'x' and they did it anyway. AIBU to be angry with her?"

The mother was quite clear. He can have abc, he cannot have xyz.

She even provided abc and yet OP went ahead, against her wishes and gave him xyz.

If she hadn't, the very worst that would have happened would be that the child got a little bit hungry and decided to eat the food he had been provided with after all.

That's your opinion. Vegans don't eat things for ethical reasons and that should he respected.

Not deemed unworthy of consideration to excuse making zero effort to cater for someone.

And medical disgnosis is between the family and the dr and not something everyone needs to know just because you only deem medical need as a good enough reason.

The kids 5. He is not going to be walking home alone and popping into the one stop.

And look at ding's post.

Proves that people really dont give a shit and go out of their way to prove a point by not asking their child to wait for an hour for something.

wannaBe
But you do not IMO have the right to make that choice for your child when they are in a different setting purely because it is your lifestyle choice.

You could extend that argument to other values taught by parents to a child. Should the child also be free to disregard anything their parents have taught them, once they are out of sight of the parents?

wannaBe
It is completely selfish to expect that children should grow up eating only what you eat

Do you have children? Given the above statement, can we assume that they've had the chance to try a vegan diet (along with being taught the ethos behind it)?

So, would you deliberately give a visiting Jewish child pork?

Or if a friend says that they do not want their small child to have coke, for example, do you give them some?

And why, when children have gone All day without something, the second a child visits who's not allowed it, suddenly it's something that cannot wait any longer.

Giving a Jewish/Muslim child pork on your own initiative because you think their food rules are silly would obviously be wrong. And at five or six, children probably aren't fully capable of making decisions about religious food rules, and it is something that families are very sensitive about, so again, I would refuse. But if an older child actually asked to try something banned by their religion, and was articulate and reasonable about why, I think it is less clear.

I was an atheist by the age of 8. If there had been foods banned by the religion I no longer believed in, I might well have wanted to try them at a friend's house. Would it have been wrong for someone to allow me to eat something forbidden by a religion I was born into but had already rejected?

In answer to Fairenuff's point

If you take out the diet restrictions imposed by the parent, or possible allergies and look at the basic problem, it boils down to the fact that OP did something the parent had expressly asked her not to.

At the same time the OP:
Went out of her way to cater for the child's dietary requirements, which he rejected
The child requested the bread & was adamant he wanted nothing else (it's not like the OP gave in immediately)
He wasn't eating much of anything else, therefore going hungry
The OP was simply told that the family 'don't eat' various foodstuffs, it was never suggested (from what she's posted) that bread would be harmful to his health

I think she did the best she could in a tricky situation

Oh and the OP tried to check with the mother who couldn't be reached

"Giving a Jewish/Muslim child pork on your own initiative because you think their food rules are silly would obviously be wrong"

Why? I think those food rules are as stupid, or probably even more stupid than the "no bread" rule. But there is no way I would ever go against the parents stated wishes.

As I said. Cook something that suits the visitor. Everyone eats that. Sorted.

What a lot of fuss over bugger all.

first world problem

If the child chooses to eat a vegan diet fine. If they want to have a slice of bread/cake/biscuit/try a sausage then they shouldn't be prevented from doing so. And while you may be able to dictate to a five year old, as they get older and more independent you simply cannot continue to enforce that kind of regime on a child

And if she does it will be counter productive.

What a lot of fuss over bugger all

Sums it up. I can't think why I am wasting time on it!