annoyed vegan mum

[PairOfTerrors]

Hi everyone

Something happened today and I am still wondering how I should have approached it. I am fully ready for people to say IWU, but would love some insight either way.

My twin DS' are in year 1 and a little boy joined at the beginning of the academic year who has been raised raw vegan (only child, single parent family.) He gets on well with DS' and I don't know the mum too well but I've heard through the grapevine that she has been under a lot of stress lately for various reasons. We got chatting a few days ago and she mentioned how she desperately just wanted a day to herself, to clear her head etc, so I offered to take her DS for today (Bank holiday) to give her some alone time.

She always gives DS his own snacks for parties etc, and she told everyone quite early on about her way of eating, just so things were clear and people didn't start asking her lots of questions. Her and DS only really eat raw, uncooked foods such as fruits, vegetables nuts and seeds. She also said they don't eat bread (I am not too clued up on raw veganism so am not 100% sure on the reasoning)

Anyhow I was out doing the food shop yesterday and noticed some yummy looking veggie burgers. DH and I are not vegetarian but I grew up with a vegetarian sister so my DM would often buy veggie options so I actually really love veggie burgers and we often have them. They came in packs of 6 so I thought I'd buy them, give one to (let's call him James) and then DH, my 2 and I could have 4 (with one leftover) for dinner. I also bought lots of nice fruit to make him a fruit salad (we are usually very boring with fruit, just apples, oranges, bananas, the occasional pear!) but I got some mangoes, pineapple and a few other things. I knew his mum would pack him a lunch but I thought, just to take the stress off a little, I'd get him a few things also.

So I phone her a couple of hours later to confirm everything was still on and she said it was and that she'd make him a lunch. I told her about what I bought and she seemed really touched and said she'd pack him some carrot sticks and hummus too (his favourite). So James comes round today and come lunch time, he has his veggie burger with a side of sweet corn, peas and some avocado, with his fruit salad for afters. My 2 were having cheese ham and salad sandwiches and a yogurt after. James takes one look at his meal, looks at my kids' sandwiches, and refuses to eat his. Now I KNOW he likes veggie burgers, it's what he seems to often have at parties and when I spoke to his mum on the phone I double checked, and I told her that it's not a problem if he doesn't like them as I'm sure DH and I could finish off the spare one out of the pack of 6 (so I really don't feel like she felt obliged to say yes he does like them just to be polite). I'm sure she'd have said "actually sorry but he's not really keen on them..." or whatever. But as I say I have definitely seen him eat them before and I was assured they would be fine.

I noticed he wasn't eating (he nibbled on the carrot sticks and avocado) so asked if he wasn't hungry. He said that he was, but could he please have a sandwich. I told him that he had his veggie burger instead etc etc and he just said he didn't want it and would rather have a sandwich. I said that I don't think his mummy would want him having a sandwich and yada yada (basically trying to convince him to eat his burger. I also asked him if there was anything he wanted instead) and he was adamant he wanted a sandwich. I tried ringing his mum to get her opinion, and perhaps she could speak to him but it went straight to voicemail. I tried twice more in the space of 30 minutes and texted her but still no reply. It all seemed strange because as I say he always has his own snacks at parties and I've never seen him complain or demand to eat what the other children are. He doesn't know any different so why now did he suddenly want some bread too? He was clearly hungry but determined he didn't want to eat his burger or even his fruit salad. At this point I'm thinking a) give him some bread, although it may piss mum off or b) let him go hungry which is firstly mean and secondly would his mum be angry and actually say something well "so he hasn't eaten all day? Could you not have just given him a little bread??"

Thinking that the latter would be worse, I caved and gave him one slice of bread which he had with his avocado and some tomato. He scoffed it down and 2 minutes later they ran off to carry on playing. Anyway fast forward to pick up time and I told his mum he had refused to eat any of his food so I gave him some bread. She immediately looked horrified, like I had told her I had murdered a kitten. She said "oh...really? Ok then...was there nothing else he could have had instead of the burger?" I told her that I had offered to make him other things (hell I even had whipped my phone out and googled "raw vegan recipes for kids!" and read off a few things but he insisted no...he wanted the bread. I told her I didn't want him going hungry and she said "well ok then, you do realise (in a sort of half laughy scoffy type voice) that that's the first time he's eaten bread??"

Now as I say I am not clued up on raw veganism. I understand it is very strict, far more so than "regular" veganism, but hell it's not like I had given him a hotdog or even a piece of cheese! It was a slice of bread..I don't mean to be disrespectful of someone else's lifestyle but I really didn't think she'd react like that and like I said earlier, I was worried that she'd be annoyed at me for letting him go hungry and actually suggest that I could have given him just a little piece. Oh and she hadn't answered her phone as it was dead and she had left her charger at work.

So they left with her pretty pissed off with me. And now I'm just wondering how in the wrong I was, or what I should have done. I know nothing can be changed now and I apologised but what would you have done? Is she right to be pissed off? Am I right to be pissed off?

At the same time the OP:

Went out of her way to cater for the child's dietary requirements, which he rejected

She wasn't asked to go out of his way. His meal was provided. She should have stuck to the agreement.

The child requested the bread & was adamant he wanted nothing else (it's not like the OP gave in immediately)

That's just pester power. What if the child had requested chocolate biscuits and was adamant he wanted nothing else. Or ice cream. Or crisps?

He wasn't eating much of anything else, therefore going hungry

He didn't have to go hungry. He had his meal, it was his usual food. If OP had left him to it he would have eaten it.

The OP was simply told that the family 'don't eat' various foodstuffs, it was never suggested (from what she's posted) that bread would be harmful to his health

Not necessarily harmful but she was told that he was not to have bread.

I'm not saying that I agree with the diet restrictions but I do agree that if one parents asks another not to feed their child a particular foodstuff for whatever reason they would be reasonable to be annoyed if the parent just went and did it anyway.

OP made the decision to completely override the parent's wishes and I think any parent would be annoyed in the same situation. What if you said your child was not to have bubble gum or sweets but your friend gave it to him because others had it and he wanted it? It's disrespectful imo.

YWNU.

Unless these foods are banned for an allergy/medical reason then this woman could have more problems than a slice of bread.
I personally respect an adult's choice to eat whatever they want but I don't agree that a child should be forced.
Educate them on why you don't eat meat, encourage them to really think about it and hope that they will make the choice by themselves = Yes. Force them =No

Francis Kenter, a Dutch mother was taken to court by social services for enforcing the same diet on her child - even going so far as to remove him from school and ignoring health advice regarding her sons malnutrician. Her elder son packed up and moved in with his dad as he didn't want to be forced to eat that way - there's a huge back story for anyone who's interested.

See I don't think it's a first world problem at all. People are trusting you to look after young children and so far we have
People saying

• it's child abuse

-it's not an allergy so doesn't matter -it's a faddy diet -the mum didn't state there were medical issues -I don't believe in any of that stuff -it's mean -my child can't wait til friend leaves for a non essential food item and is can't bare to say no to a child so sod it. -it's justbread

There is no respect here for anybody.

And I did already say that the op meant no harm and that the mother should perhaps make a mental note to explain things not that anything other than death from anaphylaxis means anything a bit note clearly and be contactable.

And that she should be grateful that someone kindly took her child for the afternoon

But there's an awful lot of people on here who seem to want to deliberately create a senario where the mum looks mean by bringing out stuff that the other child can't eat, and ridiculing of things they don't understand.

And FYI a few crumbs of bread can cause huge problems for those who are intolerant of gluten

It may be just bread to you but to others it's not.

but this was not a glutin intolerant child - it was a vegan one. One is a medical condition, the other is a parent's lifestyle choice.

And yes, if it was glutin intolerant then the parent looking after the child should be informed because there is a difference between "my child can't eat bread because he will be very ill, have a severely upset stomach and could require medical creatment," in which case the op would need to contact the mother ASAP if the child had ingested any of it, and "my child can't have bread because my lifestyle choice of being a vegan means he can't have it." in which case if the child has any you just inform the parent and presume that it really isn't that big a deal which in truth, it really isn't.

Would I give coke to a visiting child - no probably not. But I equally wouldn't consider it that big a deal if they had some or if my child had some at another child's house.

Is it any wonder that children have such issues with food when their parents are so anal about it.

but this was not a glutin intolerant child - it was a vegan one. One is a medical condition, the other is a parent's lifestyle choice.

And yes, if it was glutin intolerant then the parent looking after the child should be informed because there is a difference between "my child can't eat bread because he will be very ill, have a severely upset stomach and could require medical creatment," in which case the op would need to contact the mother ASAP if the child had ingested any of it, and "my child can't have bread because my lifestyle choice of being a vegan means he can't have it." in which case if the child has any you just inform the parent and presume that it really isn't that big a deal which in truth, it really isn't.

Would I give coke to a visiting child - no probably not. But I equally wouldn't consider it that big a deal if they had some or if my child had some at another child's house.

Is it any wonder that children have such issues with food when their parents are so anal about it.

There you go again. He is vegan. Like it or not that child is bring raised a vegan at this moment in time.

Not all bread is vegan.

Mum stated no bread. That is not something up for debate by you or anyone else.

It was also completely non essential as he had his meal. If your kids asked for sweets instead of dinner you'd have said no wouldn't you?

What he asked for was nothing to do with being deprived as a vegan and everything to do with it being what kids do sometimes regardless if what their fed at home.

It's up to the adult to be an adult and use their brain. And say no.

I personally respect an adult's choice to eat whatever they want but I don't agree that a child should be forced.

If you follow that logic, children would live off a diet of chocolate, sweets, crisps, biscuits or whatever it is that their parents limit for them.

No, children should not be 'forced' to eat but his mother provides him with all the nutrition he needs, through the vegan diet, which is her choice. It's not up to other parents to go so against what they have been asked to do. OP was not even asked to provide a meal, just to not give him bread. It's a very simple request.

Would I give coke to a visiting child - no probably not.

Why not wanna?

But I equally wouldn't consider it that big a deal if they had some

Even if the parent had said, "We don't allow him to have coke. He can have water, milk or apple juice. I have provided drinks for him. Please don't give him coke"? Would you still give it to them?

And why would you consider to wrong to give a visiting Jewish child ham?

Fairenuff
I didn't say parents should give children the choice to live off choc,sweets,crisps etc. It doesn't follow the same logic at all.
We, as parents, restrict those things in a diet to prevent tooth decay and obesity and because they're not healthy. Neither, imo, is restricting them so severely on a vegan diet.
I don't think that someone should purposely go against another parents wishes, of course not. In op case - I think I'd have done the same thing myself through feeling sorry for the child.

So vegetarian parents should feed their children meat? Jewish parents feed their children non Kosher food? So they can make their own minds up?

That child has eaten bread somewhere else before. Otherwise the cheeky little * wouldn't have asked for it. I think you shouldn't have caved into him but he and his mum did place you under a bit of pressure.

He isn't 't a vegan- he is a child whose mother has decided he is a vegan. Quite clearly he doesn't follow or be wouldn't have asked for bread. He must have had it before, his mother just didn't know. He would assume that she wouldn't know this time!

You know, if a mother had come on here and posted that her MIL had given her child bread when specifically asked not to, everyone would be outraged and getting ready for a MIL burning,,,,,,,,,,,,

It's interesting that the contentious food was bread and I think this is impacting people's reaction somewhat.

Bread is a staple food in this country, it's not normally avoided for any religious or ethical reason. It's health credentials are sound enough, so we're not used to it being forbidden for this reason either (except if the child had been coeliac, which was never suggested).

So the comparisons with pork/coke/chocolate are not exactly like with like. Collectively we 'get' why these foods could be problematic.

Bread is not normally contentious, in fact, before reading this thread I would have thought it was a straightforward, non-contentious, innocent enough option very unlikely to cause trouble.

Ultimately, raw veganism is an extremely niche dietary requirement and I don't blame the OP for feeling that a slice of bread wasn't the end of the world. The waters had already been muddied by the fact that the veggie burger was deemed okay by the child's mother (and I still don't understand how that meets the requirements for raw veganism).

HRWT.
Being a raw vegan is his mother choice.
I doubt he will remain one for very long if he has any choice.

BTW the bread in itself (without butter) is probably vegan - it's just not raw. So its not a major life changing 'sin'

In the 70s when this sort of thing was rare, I wasn't allowed sweets, white bread, cake, indeed any refined foods. As a result I probably ate more refined foods than anyone else I knew, all on the quiet.

bread is not normally contentious
True
But the request tonotgive bread made it so.
I think it's silly to not feed a child bread unless there's a medical reason to avoid it.
,but I think we should respect the choices of parents for their own DCs.
The op wasn't able to contact the mother to check so should have defaulted to the original request if not giving him bread.

Oh, and of course it's a first world problem. This is aibu, on MN. Not the bloody Sudan.

Children should be able to try different foods (medical problems not included) where available if they want. So at friends houses or parties or restaurants. Food should be provided for the child's restrictive diet but it should be the child's choice to try other food if they want.
At 5 he will know his normal diet and his mums views but should be aloud to explore food if he wants. Personally this goes for all diets wether they are restricted due to religion or vegan or any other diet. This is because these diets are the parents own views/ believes and tastes not the child's.
Otherwise, at what age can a child take control of their diet? 8? 10? 15?20?
Again, medical problems are completely different

To everyone saying that a child should be allowed to choose whether he wants to be a vegan. He's 5. If left to his own devices, he'd choose to have a diet that consisted of ice cream, cookies, and junk food.

It's up to the parent to give their diet they think their child should have.

That said, if my kid wasn't allowed to have candy and someone gave her a piece of candy, it really wouldn't be a big deal unless she had an allergy. I'd be more upset that someone was trying to undermine my parenting.

How would you guys feel if you specifically told someone you didn't want your child should have caffeine or soda, even provided a separate juice drink for him so that he wouldn't inconvenience the host, and he still got hopped up on caffeine at a friend's house because he "refused to drink anything else". A soda or coffee won't kill a child, it might make them sick, but there's a good chance it will do nothing. I can promise most people would be upset by it.

I would not be confident in someone's ability to watch my child if they let a 5 year old make decisions and were powerless to put their foot down.

That said, the OP clearly didn't mean any harm by it. So as a one off, should be forgiven.

And that's a decision you make for your kids.

If dd was a vegetarian and someone fed her meat before is had the change to ensure she fully understood, I'd go nuts.

This is no different. It's only ok with you lot because your not vegan or raw vegan and don't believe or understand.

A lot of you would feel that way about other things.

Caffeine is bad for kids, loads of sweets is bad. Letting a child have a small amount of choice is not going to result in them eating only sweets, cakes and biscuits.
In the ops story the boy wanted some bread, he should have been able to decide for himself. If he had wanted half a loaf of bread then the op should have said no because that is excessive.
Other ways a child can explore food; child at a restraint should be able to chose the meal they want as long as it is within the parents price range, at a party a child should be able to chose what they want from the buffet table (not a plate full of crisps/ chocolates / sweets as too much will give most kids a tummy ache)
You can guild a child and teach them your morals and believes but after about 5 years you cant insulate them form other diets and they will want to try them out. Within reason let them. A small cup of coke will do no harm, a sip or two of coffee will not hurt them. One hog roast will not stop a jewish/ vegan child from growing up fully jewish/ vegan.

I am a vegetarian, vegan-curious.
I often wonder how vegan parents 'keep' their dc's vegan past a certain age and what that age is.Is it that once they question their veganism, they already understand the arguments for veganism, for themselves and agree with that choice, I wonder?

I think a younger childs eating choices are guided by their parents and it is only right to respect that and form strategies if a child comes round your house who is vegan so their treatment at mealtimes includes them rather than excludes them.

I remember being really put out wen my dc's were just starting on solid food and others gave them sweets and biscuits.

Same thing imo.

No, but it might make them feel pretty ill or disgusted that they had eaten it when they trusted their adult care givers.

How many times does it need saying that is not your decision to make with someone else's child.

I don't believe people do half the crap they say on here. I'd still never take it upon myself to prove my point and dis respect someone else's parenting choices.

I presume all those arguing that a 5 (?6) year old child should be able to make their own dietary decisions, would also fully support their own child's decision at that age to adopt a vegan/raw vegan diet. (If the child doesn't know such things exist, then arguments about children trying anything/everything is perhaps flawed.)