annoyed vegan mum

[PairOfTerrors]

Hi everyone

Something happened today and I am still wondering how I should have approached it. I am fully ready for people to say IWU, but would love some insight either way.

My twin DS' are in year 1 and a little boy joined at the beginning of the academic year who has been raised raw vegan (only child, single parent family.) He gets on well with DS' and I don't know the mum too well but I've heard through the grapevine that she has been under a lot of stress lately for various reasons. We got chatting a few days ago and she mentioned how she desperately just wanted a day to herself, to clear her head etc, so I offered to take her DS for today (Bank holiday) to give her some alone time.

She always gives DS his own snacks for parties etc, and she told everyone quite early on about her way of eating, just so things were clear and people didn't start asking her lots of questions. Her and DS only really eat raw, uncooked foods such as fruits, vegetables nuts and seeds. She also said they don't eat bread (I am not too clued up on raw veganism so am not 100% sure on the reasoning)

Anyhow I was out doing the food shop yesterday and noticed some yummy looking veggie burgers. DH and I are not vegetarian but I grew up with a vegetarian sister so my DM would often buy veggie options so I actually really love veggie burgers and we often have them. They came in packs of 6 so I thought I'd buy them, give one to (let's call him James) and then DH, my 2 and I could have 4 (with one leftover) for dinner. I also bought lots of nice fruit to make him a fruit salad (we are usually very boring with fruit, just apples, oranges, bananas, the occasional pear!) but I got some mangoes, pineapple and a few other things. I knew his mum would pack him a lunch but I thought, just to take the stress off a little, I'd get him a few things also.

So I phone her a couple of hours later to confirm everything was still on and she said it was and that she'd make him a lunch. I told her about what I bought and she seemed really touched and said she'd pack him some carrot sticks and hummus too (his favourite). So James comes round today and come lunch time, he has his veggie burger with a side of sweet corn, peas and some avocado, with his fruit salad for afters. My 2 were having cheese ham and salad sandwiches and a yogurt after. James takes one look at his meal, looks at my kids' sandwiches, and refuses to eat his. Now I KNOW he likes veggie burgers, it's what he seems to often have at parties and when I spoke to his mum on the phone I double checked, and I told her that it's not a problem if he doesn't like them as I'm sure DH and I could finish off the spare one out of the pack of 6 (so I really don't feel like she felt obliged to say yes he does like them just to be polite). I'm sure she'd have said "actually sorry but he's not really keen on them..." or whatever. But as I say I have definitely seen him eat them before and I was assured they would be fine.

I noticed he wasn't eating (he nibbled on the carrot sticks and avocado) so asked if he wasn't hungry. He said that he was, but could he please have a sandwich. I told him that he had his veggie burger instead etc etc and he just said he didn't want it and would rather have a sandwich. I said that I don't think his mummy would want him having a sandwich and yada yada (basically trying to convince him to eat his burger. I also asked him if there was anything he wanted instead) and he was adamant he wanted a sandwich. I tried ringing his mum to get her opinion, and perhaps she could speak to him but it went straight to voicemail. I tried twice more in the space of 30 minutes and texted her but still no reply. It all seemed strange because as I say he always has his own snacks at parties and I've never seen him complain or demand to eat what the other children are. He doesn't know any different so why now did he suddenly want some bread too? He was clearly hungry but determined he didn't want to eat his burger or even his fruit salad. At this point I'm thinking a) give him some bread, although it may piss mum off or b) let him go hungry which is firstly mean and secondly would his mum be angry and actually say something well "so he hasn't eaten all day? Could you not have just given him a little bread??"

Thinking that the latter would be worse, I caved and gave him one slice of bread which he had with his avocado and some tomato. He scoffed it down and 2 minutes later they ran off to carry on playing. Anyway fast forward to pick up time and I told his mum he had refused to eat any of his food so I gave him some bread. She immediately looked horrified, like I had told her I had murdered a kitten. She said "oh...really? Ok then...was there nothing else he could have had instead of the burger?" I told her that I had offered to make him other things (hell I even had whipped my phone out and googled "raw vegan recipes for kids!" and read off a few things but he insisted no...he wanted the bread. I told her I didn't want him going hungry and she said "well ok then, you do realise (in a sort of half laughy scoffy type voice) that that's the first time he's eaten bread??"

Now as I say I am not clued up on raw veganism. I understand it is very strict, far more so than "regular" veganism, but hell it's not like I had given him a hotdog or even a piece of cheese! It was a slice of bread..I don't mean to be disrespectful of someone else's lifestyle but I really didn't think she'd react like that and like I said earlier, I was worried that she'd be annoyed at me for letting him go hungry and actually suggest that I could have given him just a little piece. Oh and she hadn't answered her phone as it was dead and she had left her charger at work.

So they left with her pretty pissed off with me. And now I'm just wondering how in the wrong I was, or what I should have done. I know nothing can be changed now and I apologised but what would you have done? Is she right to be pissed off? Am I right to be pissed off?

Brian you quoted my post then went on some tangential ranty argument which has no relevance at all to my point.

In which case make your point a little clearer next time wildthong, then it won't be open to misinterpretation. As all you said in that previous post is that the op did a kind thing for the ds and that you felt sorry for him. Hope that clarifies things for you

Right and you know your children and will know when they can be trusted with making that decision.

Unless you know other children particularly well and know that they make sensible decisions and their mum allows them to eat what the hell they like then you can't just decide that.

You would also have to be bloody sure that there were no underlying medical reasons why things are the way they are.

I think you were BU for giving bread when his mum expressly said that bread was not allowed. Would you give a child with a nut allergy nuts because they wanted them?

I think the rest of the stuff you did was very nice and I hope that the mum forgives you and you can move forward.

This isn't your fault at all. You were in an impossible situation and you had no way of knowing which option was better. I'm also confused as to why the mother was ok with veggie burgers (which are often not only not raw, but not vegan) but not bread.

I'm a vegan mum-to-be and I will be raising my kids vegan. However, when they are at the houses of other people, or at parties, I fully plan to let them join in with the eating of other foods, so that they don't feel set apart from the other kids and deprived. One cannot control everything about one's children, and one cannot expect to.

I also eat a LOT of bread and I really don't understand the opposition to it; unless you have coeliac disease, or a gluten intolerance, wholemeal bread is a healthy and nutritious food.

Honestly, there's no pleasing some people. I'm sorry that this lady was so rude and unappreciative, especially after you made such an effort to accommodate her needs.

Unless you know other children particularly well and know that they make sensible decisions and their mum allows them to eat what the hell they like then you can't just decide that.

I don't have to know a children particularly well to know whether they can make "sensible decisions" regarding food. If a child is old enough to be out and about by themselves, they are old enough to decide whether they want to follow their parents beliefs regarding food in my opinion.

*Chesterberry, what exactly is the difference between eating "fortified" foodstuffs and taking a vitamin supplements?

Not saying veganism is unhealthy per se, but getting enough B12 IS problematic on a vegan diet.*

I suppose there isn't a big difference in that the B12 is added rather than found naturally in the food. But a lot of foods are fortified by default and as such it isn't any extra effort to eat them. I also agree that when following a vegan diet it's important to think about how you are getting vitamin B12 into your diet and ensure that you are getting enough but there are ways to consume vitamin B12 which don't involve vitamin supplements.

The poster who said that if vegans don't take vitamin supplements they will die of anaemia was ill-informed and scaremongering and I was merely trying to highlight that vitamin B12 can be consumed in the needed daily quantities through diet alone even if one is vegan, although I agree it is harder to do so.

The kid might not die of anaemia but it is well-documented that very high fibre diets which are low in fat and calories - and a raw vegan diet would be an extreme example - can be harmful for small children.

Chesterberry and SleepRefugee, just a bit of info on B12 - it's not found naturally in animal products. It's added to animal feed as a supplement, so you're basically eating second-hand supplements when you eat meat and dairy. B12 is only synthesised by bacteria, it is not formed in the tissues of animals. Veganism isn't the reason for B12 deficiency, the fact that the food we now eat doesn't ever come into contact with the bacteria which produces it is. In the past we would have gotten plenty of it by eating foods contaminated with it, but modern farming techniques have meant this doesn't happen. So there's no way to avoid eating supplements if you want B12 in your diet!

Hi brian glad I cleared it up for you.

Microferet, I believe that yeast is a natural, vegan form of B12 and one which isn't derived from supplements. You can buy nutritional yeast flakes at good health food stores and that's how the main source of B12 in my vegan diet and yeast extract (marmite etc) contains vitamin B12 too.

Thanks Chesterberry, great tip. I'll give yeast a try
These people who go on about how veganism is bad for you know nothing. It's a perfectly healthy diet upon which anybody can thrive. I've had blood work done twice and I am deficient in precisely nothing, my triglycerides and LDL cholesterol levels are very low and my HDL is nice and high. I get so tired of the people who go on about how awful a diet it is without knowing any of the facts!

We had a friend who raised her dd according to a strict vegan diet. She was healthy and thriving. Her parents ensured the diet was balanced and she received the correct vitamins, etc.

I'm sorry op I can tell you feel bad about this but tbh you shouldn't have given the dc bread. If someone was watching my dc and asked if they could have Coke and I said 'no' and then they gave them some, I'd be pretty annoyed. The dc may try to push their luck but as an adult you have to manage that.

And choosing not to eat bread is a much bigger decision (whether taken for health or moral/vegan reasons) than my dislike of Coke. I'd have given all the dc's the same to eat, and I wouldn't have given the ds bread. I know lots of people with diagnosed allergies and I wouldn't want to run the risk of making someone ill. However it's also about respecting other people's beliefs.

I agree that it is a healthy diet for adults but I'm not so sure about children as they tend to be quite fussy and may not have enough variety to get all the nutrients or all the calories they need. Plus the mother in the OP seems to have a particularly restrictive vegan diet if food can't be cooked.

I don't believe for one minute that any one who has no problem with her child eating a cooked, commercial produced bean burger, the provenance of which she didn't apparently ask about, is making her own home made houmous from uncooked sprouted chick-peas as some-one suggested.

If the mother was serious about her diet she would have asked a lot more about the burger.

I'd put money on this kid reaching his teenage years and going nuts in McDonalds. I get that someone would raise their child to be veggie, and possibly vegan (although non of the vegans I know raise their kids that strictly apart from the no meat/fish part) but to be that restrictive is just setting the child up to have a strange relationship with food. IMO.

YWNBU - you tried your absolute hardest and hunger trumps uber restrictive diet if you ask me, unless serious allergies and animal products are the issue.

The boy's mother is going to have to get used to him eating off-piste as it were on occasion if he is to socialise on a regular basis.

"Would you give a child with a nut allergy nuts because they wanted them?"

I don't think the OP should have given the little boy bread but this quote has made me

I've just Googled the ingredients for Linda McCartney veggie burgers - they have dairy produce in them.

Waitrose Kosher ones have egg white.

The first 3 recipes on homemade recipe sites had breadcrumbs in them.

Sainsburys have egg white in theirs

Birds Eye has wheat flower in theirs.

As mother didn't ask anything about the type of burger she's presumably happy for her child to eat any or all of these ingredients.

Just wondering at what age everyone thinks the child should be able to decide for himself whether or not to eat bread (assuming there are no allergies/intolerances involved)?

It sounds like the consensus is that 5 or 6 is too young, but what about 8? 10? 12? Do you think children should follow their parents' rules on food until they are adults?

Wheat flour obviously.

Wheat flour obviously.

I would say definitely by 8 years. By that age they will be out and about by themselves and if they want to eat meat they will. The parent can't be behind them all the time. By 8 yrs, if they have an over controlling parent, they will have found ways around it. By 8 years they understand what is in food and therefore if they eat a sausage roll they know what they are eating.

By secondary school a parent definitely can't have complete control unless they home educate, and even then it will be difficult if they socialise.

exexpat - it's an interesting question. I don't think one can control exactly what your child eats at any age over about 7, nor should one expect to. In the home is your domain where you decide what the menu is, and you can give your child a lunchbox for school, but unless there are significant health reasons you can't exert influence over every single little thing that goes in your child's mouth.

I am a vegan mum-to-be and I will be raising my child(ren) in accordance with my beliefs, and educating them about why we eat this way; however I'm not going to go apeshit if they happen to eat a bit of cheese or bacon or non-vegan cake at a party or a friend's house. Ultimately the choice to be vegan has to be theirs. Children are new human beings with their own ideas and we can't force them to adhere to our own beliefs, we can only hope that they will share them. Control freakery and making kids feel isolated from their peers can give children complexes over foods and may even push them in the opposite direction to the one you believe is correct. My mother hardly ever allowed me any chocolate. crisps or cake (she was chubby as a teenager and young adult) and as a result those were the very foods I became obsessed with. Just like many foods, ideology should only be given to children in moderate doses.

I would be interested to know what brand the 100% vegetable veggie burgers the OP bought got the child are. I am vegan and as highlighted above most veggie burgers have egg or dairy in. The few which are vegan (eg: good life) still all have flour or breadcrumbs in them. The only place I have ever seen 100% vegetable burgers suitable for a raw-food diet is in a specialist vegan health food store which hand-made them.

It does all seem odd that the mother didn't mind cooked burgers which, even if they did contain 100% vegetables (unlikely) still wouldn't meet the guidelines for a raw-food diet once popped in the oven. Especially considering they probably weren't 100% vegetable.