annoyed vegan mum

[PairOfTerrors]

Hi everyone

Something happened today and I am still wondering how I should have approached it. I am fully ready for people to say IWU, but would love some insight either way.

My twin DS' are in year 1 and a little boy joined at the beginning of the academic year who has been raised raw vegan (only child, single parent family.) He gets on well with DS' and I don't know the mum too well but I've heard through the grapevine that she has been under a lot of stress lately for various reasons. We got chatting a few days ago and she mentioned how she desperately just wanted a day to herself, to clear her head etc, so I offered to take her DS for today (Bank holiday) to give her some alone time.

She always gives DS his own snacks for parties etc, and she told everyone quite early on about her way of eating, just so things were clear and people didn't start asking her lots of questions. Her and DS only really eat raw, uncooked foods such as fruits, vegetables nuts and seeds. She also said they don't eat bread (I am not too clued up on raw veganism so am not 100% sure on the reasoning)

Anyhow I was out doing the food shop yesterday and noticed some yummy looking veggie burgers. DH and I are not vegetarian but I grew up with a vegetarian sister so my DM would often buy veggie options so I actually really love veggie burgers and we often have them. They came in packs of 6 so I thought I'd buy them, give one to (let's call him James) and then DH, my 2 and I could have 4 (with one leftover) for dinner. I also bought lots of nice fruit to make him a fruit salad (we are usually very boring with fruit, just apples, oranges, bananas, the occasional pear!) but I got some mangoes, pineapple and a few other things. I knew his mum would pack him a lunch but I thought, just to take the stress off a little, I'd get him a few things also.

So I phone her a couple of hours later to confirm everything was still on and she said it was and that she'd make him a lunch. I told her about what I bought and she seemed really touched and said she'd pack him some carrot sticks and hummus too (his favourite). So James comes round today and come lunch time, he has his veggie burger with a side of sweet corn, peas and some avocado, with his fruit salad for afters. My 2 were having cheese ham and salad sandwiches and a yogurt after. James takes one look at his meal, looks at my kids' sandwiches, and refuses to eat his. Now I KNOW he likes veggie burgers, it's what he seems to often have at parties and when I spoke to his mum on the phone I double checked, and I told her that it's not a problem if he doesn't like them as I'm sure DH and I could finish off the spare one out of the pack of 6 (so I really don't feel like she felt obliged to say yes he does like them just to be polite). I'm sure she'd have said "actually sorry but he's not really keen on them..." or whatever. But as I say I have definitely seen him eat them before and I was assured they would be fine.

I noticed he wasn't eating (he nibbled on the carrot sticks and avocado) so asked if he wasn't hungry. He said that he was, but could he please have a sandwich. I told him that he had his veggie burger instead etc etc and he just said he didn't want it and would rather have a sandwich. I said that I don't think his mummy would want him having a sandwich and yada yada (basically trying to convince him to eat his burger. I also asked him if there was anything he wanted instead) and he was adamant he wanted a sandwich. I tried ringing his mum to get her opinion, and perhaps she could speak to him but it went straight to voicemail. I tried twice more in the space of 30 minutes and texted her but still no reply. It all seemed strange because as I say he always has his own snacks at parties and I've never seen him complain or demand to eat what the other children are. He doesn't know any different so why now did he suddenly want some bread too? He was clearly hungry but determined he didn't want to eat his burger or even his fruit salad. At this point I'm thinking a) give him some bread, although it may piss mum off or b) let him go hungry which is firstly mean and secondly would his mum be angry and actually say something well "so he hasn't eaten all day? Could you not have just given him a little bread??"

Thinking that the latter would be worse, I caved and gave him one slice of bread which he had with his avocado and some tomato. He scoffed it down and 2 minutes later they ran off to carry on playing. Anyway fast forward to pick up time and I told his mum he had refused to eat any of his food so I gave him some bread. She immediately looked horrified, like I had told her I had murdered a kitten. She said "oh...really? Ok then...was there nothing else he could have had instead of the burger?" I told her that I had offered to make him other things (hell I even had whipped my phone out and googled "raw vegan recipes for kids!" and read off a few things but he insisted no...he wanted the bread. I told her I didn't want him going hungry and she said "well ok then, you do realise (in a sort of half laughy scoffy type voice) that that's the first time he's eaten bread??"

Now as I say I am not clued up on raw veganism. I understand it is very strict, far more so than "regular" veganism, but hell it's not like I had given him a hotdog or even a piece of cheese! It was a slice of bread..I don't mean to be disrespectful of someone else's lifestyle but I really didn't think she'd react like that and like I said earlier, I was worried that she'd be annoyed at me for letting him go hungry and actually suggest that I could have given him just a little piece. Oh and she hadn't answered her phone as it was dead and she had left her charger at work.

So they left with her pretty pissed off with me. And now I'm just wondering how in the wrong I was, or what I should have done. I know nothing can be changed now and I apologised but what would you have done? Is she right to be pissed off? Am I right to be pissed off?

Gluten in yogurt flavorings. Huh. There's no escaping it is there?

I learn something new each day on mn. :)

RawCoconutMacaroon, yes animals have B12-producing bacteria in their guts - but these have to get there somehow. In the world of factory farming it has to be added to feed in the first place as a supplement. B12 (cobalamin) and cobalt also have to be added throughout the animal's life in some cases: "But while the rumen provides for much of the cows B vitamin requirements, many circumstances indicate a need for supplementation. The lack of a trace mineral, cobalt, can result in a vitamin B12 deficiency in cattle. This is because cobalt is a part of the vitamin B12 compound and is essential for rumen bacteria to manufacture this vitamin." (from cattletoday.com)

The common misconception is that meat magically somehow produces B12 - which it doesn't. And then people like to try to use B12 as a way of arguing that veganism is unnatural, but if we still ate as early man did (ie things we found growing naturally in the ground, drinking untreated water) we wouldn't have to worry about not getting enough (this is what I meant by contamination, by the way - I wasn't referring to supplementation).

Meat eaters can also be deficient in B12. The older you get, the more you need. It's estimated that about 40% of the US population are B12 deficient, and we all know how much meat the Yanks get through, so whether you're a vegan or a committed steak lover you can still be deficient if you're not careful. I don't see the big deal about adding a supplement. It's absorbed just as well as B12 from meat would be, and taking a tablet couldn't be easier. I've been a vegan for over a year and whenever I have blood work done I have more than enough in my system.

Why are people so scared to say no.

They know the answer before they ask. What they want is to test if mummy told you or not.

And if they can talk you around.

How could you do that though dingalong if you know the child is dairy intolerant? Why wouldn't you just say no?

dingalong but if the child is dairy intolerant he could have become very sick, why would you risk that

I would have given the bread & decided the family was impossible & not to invite again. Life is too short to get caught up in other people's weird food games.

YANBU! I cannot stand the entitled type who don't pack the kid what he should have. She sounds like un ungrateful cow. It's not rocket science, he can't/won't/ whatever have mainstream food she should have packed what he could have and tell him to eat eat.

Truly a first world problem! Bread! Oh the horrors of it.

Goodness gracious, it's a piece of bread! Of course you didn't do anything wrong. She was being unbelievably precious! And no you shouldn't necessarily have given your kids the same thing - it sounds like it's normal on your household to have a sandwich for lunch whereas burgers more of a dinner thing, and I don't see any reason you should have changed that. I might have just allowed him to not eat, but he will probably remember fondly the day he was on a play date and allowed to eat bread!

This seems to be a diet of her choosing rather than one he needs.
And as such IMHO it appears unneccessarily restrictive from both a nutritional and a social viewpoint. Also, the term "raw vegan" doesn't fit with veggie burgers (cooked, I assume) or houmus (made with cooked chickpeas) but ppl can choose their own diets can't they? It's not for us to say "well you eat jelly so I'm going to insist you have a pork chop for lunch" - IYSWIM.

I think it's possible to argue ywbu to give him bread as it was on the list of contraband foods. The temptation could have been avoided by not giving your dcs bread at that meal tbh. you made some considerable effort in some areas so why not just stick to his "diet"? After all it was just one day.

I think you perhaps ought to have stuck to his "diet" but I can see why you didn't.
And I think the boys mother is BU (or at least a bit difficult) to raise him on that diet, assuming an absence of allergies, seems a bit ridiculous (sorry) and a control issue.
But we all have our ways. And he is her son and she gets to choose what he eats.

You seem very nice. But strictly speaking ywbu.

He maybe be her son but she only get to choose what he eats when he is in her own home or she is with him. He is getting to the age where he chooses. My mother is free to have her own opinions and choice on food but she can't expect me to think the same, even if she brings me up that way. The mother in OP is going to have to relax, the stricter she is the more likely he is to try and get forbidden foods. Maybe you can stop him having bread at 5 yrs, but it gets increasingly difficult - and impossible later- unless he knows it will make him ill (which it didn't)

"But I couldn't refuse ds a yogurt (yogurt monster) because someone else isn't allowed to have them."

So you gave a child something that might have made him sick because you couldn't say no to your own child?

I think that giving a dairy intolerant child a yoghurt is a bit different from giving a piece of bread to a child who only keeps off it because of the mother's view and the OP had tried to contact the mother.

I agree. But it is the same sort of mindset.

It's easy. You have somebody over that you know has a restricted diet for whatever reason, so you provide a meal that your guest can eat and everyone has the same. The OP even had the vegeburgers and was planning to serve them to her family later. Why on earth do separate things? Why make life difficult?

It seems odd to me that you would outlaw bread and yet be happy with commercially produced vegeburgers! An even odder mindset!

Well, not an odder mindset than the one that gives a dairy allergic child yoghurt because they can't say no to their own child - but yes, I agree, I thought that was odd. And they almost certainly weren't vegan either.

I would agree ,but OP didn't do anything as irresponsible.

But why not all just eat the same? [baffled emoticon]. I can't be arsed to make separate meals.

Poor little kid. I would imagine he will start to make his own choices eventually. I do feel sorry for him as that diet is extreme. I hope he is getting adequate fats as obv vegans can't have butter but can have coconut oil or olive oil at least.

Can't believe that anyone could be stupid enough to give a dairy intolerant child a yoghurt rather than deny their precious pumpkin one for an hour but every day's a learning day here alright.

I have a peanut allergic child here today. Ds1 will not be having his favourite pb sandwiches for lunch today and if he was we'd not be slinging one to his mate so he doesn't feel left out either.

As for gluten, I have just had my diagnosis of celiac disease changed to one of Crohns. Makes no difference to my ability to eat gluten - I can't, even crumbs leave me in agony. Anyone who thinks that's faddy can fuck off.

It is all a red herring-OP didn't give a yoghurt and the child didn't have a problem with gluten.

diets to accommodate allergies/intolerances are one thing and of course should be adhered to. but diets to accommodate someone's faddy lifestyle choices are quite another, and it is IMO bordering on abusive to give a child such a restricted diet. If you fed a child on chocolate and biscuits thus requiring them to have supplements to make up the shortfall the authorities might have something to say about that, feeding a child such a restricted vegan diet is on the same level as that IMO.

We're not talking about fizzy drinks or alcohol or crack cocaine here we're talking about a slice of bread fgs.

Veganism is not a "faddy diet" or an "eating disorder" as has been suggested on this thread. It is amazing that the denizens of Mumsnet, usually so tolerant of others beliefs, are always so quick to judge others.

In this specific case it is possible that the mother is not truly adhering to a raw vegan diet/that a raw vegan diet may not be the best choice for her child.

However, attacking vegans in general is not on. Veganism is perfectly healthy for both adults and children providing basic nutritional guidelines are adhered to, much the same as with an omni diet. Just because someone has different beliefs to you, does not mean that they are wrong.

Nothing at all with a vegan diet, but this is a child of a vegan- yet to make up his own mind. OP tried to stick to what she had been told, tried to contact his mum and failed and so went with his choice. Not a big deal.