annoyed vegan mum

[PairOfTerrors]

Hi everyone

Something happened today and I am still wondering how I should have approached it. I am fully ready for people to say IWU, but would love some insight either way.

My twin DS' are in year 1 and a little boy joined at the beginning of the academic year who has been raised raw vegan (only child, single parent family.) He gets on well with DS' and I don't know the mum too well but I've heard through the grapevine that she has been under a lot of stress lately for various reasons. We got chatting a few days ago and she mentioned how she desperately just wanted a day to herself, to clear her head etc, so I offered to take her DS for today (Bank holiday) to give her some alone time.

She always gives DS his own snacks for parties etc, and she told everyone quite early on about her way of eating, just so things were clear and people didn't start asking her lots of questions. Her and DS only really eat raw, uncooked foods such as fruits, vegetables nuts and seeds. She also said they don't eat bread (I am not too clued up on raw veganism so am not 100% sure on the reasoning)

Anyhow I was out doing the food shop yesterday and noticed some yummy looking veggie burgers. DH and I are not vegetarian but I grew up with a vegetarian sister so my DM would often buy veggie options so I actually really love veggie burgers and we often have them. They came in packs of 6 so I thought I'd buy them, give one to (let's call him James) and then DH, my 2 and I could have 4 (with one leftover) for dinner. I also bought lots of nice fruit to make him a fruit salad (we are usually very boring with fruit, just apples, oranges, bananas, the occasional pear!) but I got some mangoes, pineapple and a few other things. I knew his mum would pack him a lunch but I thought, just to take the stress off a little, I'd get him a few things also.

So I phone her a couple of hours later to confirm everything was still on and she said it was and that she'd make him a lunch. I told her about what I bought and she seemed really touched and said she'd pack him some carrot sticks and hummus too (his favourite). So James comes round today and come lunch time, he has his veggie burger with a side of sweet corn, peas and some avocado, with his fruit salad for afters. My 2 were having cheese ham and salad sandwiches and a yogurt after. James takes one look at his meal, looks at my kids' sandwiches, and refuses to eat his. Now I KNOW he likes veggie burgers, it's what he seems to often have at parties and when I spoke to his mum on the phone I double checked, and I told her that it's not a problem if he doesn't like them as I'm sure DH and I could finish off the spare one out of the pack of 6 (so I really don't feel like she felt obliged to say yes he does like them just to be polite). I'm sure she'd have said "actually sorry but he's not really keen on them..." or whatever. But as I say I have definitely seen him eat them before and I was assured they would be fine.

I noticed he wasn't eating (he nibbled on the carrot sticks and avocado) so asked if he wasn't hungry. He said that he was, but could he please have a sandwich. I told him that he had his veggie burger instead etc etc and he just said he didn't want it and would rather have a sandwich. I said that I don't think his mummy would want him having a sandwich and yada yada (basically trying to convince him to eat his burger. I also asked him if there was anything he wanted instead) and he was adamant he wanted a sandwich. I tried ringing his mum to get her opinion, and perhaps she could speak to him but it went straight to voicemail. I tried twice more in the space of 30 minutes and texted her but still no reply. It all seemed strange because as I say he always has his own snacks at parties and I've never seen him complain or demand to eat what the other children are. He doesn't know any different so why now did he suddenly want some bread too? He was clearly hungry but determined he didn't want to eat his burger or even his fruit salad. At this point I'm thinking a) give him some bread, although it may piss mum off or b) let him go hungry which is firstly mean and secondly would his mum be angry and actually say something well "so he hasn't eaten all day? Could you not have just given him a little bread??"

Thinking that the latter would be worse, I caved and gave him one slice of bread which he had with his avocado and some tomato. He scoffed it down and 2 minutes later they ran off to carry on playing. Anyway fast forward to pick up time and I told his mum he had refused to eat any of his food so I gave him some bread. She immediately looked horrified, like I had told her I had murdered a kitten. She said "oh...really? Ok then...was there nothing else he could have had instead of the burger?" I told her that I had offered to make him other things (hell I even had whipped my phone out and googled "raw vegan recipes for kids!" and read off a few things but he insisted no...he wanted the bread. I told her I didn't want him going hungry and she said "well ok then, you do realise (in a sort of half laughy scoffy type voice) that that's the first time he's eaten bread??"

Now as I say I am not clued up on raw veganism. I understand it is very strict, far more so than "regular" veganism, but hell it's not like I had given him a hotdog or even a piece of cheese! It was a slice of bread..I don't mean to be disrespectful of someone else's lifestyle but I really didn't think she'd react like that and like I said earlier, I was worried that she'd be annoyed at me for letting him go hungry and actually suggest that I could have given him just a little piece. Oh and she hadn't answered her phone as it was dead and she had left her charger at work.

So they left with her pretty pissed off with me. And now I'm just wondering how in the wrong I was, or what I should have done. I know nothing can be changed now and I apologised but what would you have done? Is she right to be pissed off? Am I right to be pissed off?

Yanbu at all, you tried your best, I think he's old enough to choose what food he would like. Don't have him again if mum is going to be like that! Poor boy, it's hardly a sufficient diet. It's one thing to have a faddy diet like this yourself, another to impose it on your child unless there are medical reasons. I bet when he's old enough hell head straight to a MaccD and buy a burger.

The fact is that even if you deem a child old enough at 8 to decide for themselves, that doesn't change the fact that they would have spent 8 years as a vege/vegan and you can't just introduce meat or cheese and expect them to be alright. It needs to be done gradually and it's not your place to do it. If they choose to but a burger at secondary school that's up to them but at 8 an adult is still going to provide the pack lunch and there's far fewer occasions where this child is going to be able to consume things out side of their usual diet if they are taking food to parties. I don't know any primary school children who take money to school unless requested for mufti day or whatever.

And also, say they ate at your house and then later on they felt ill.

The child won't confess to wolfing down a milk shake and sausage roll on the way home. The mum will assume it's what you fed her that made her child ill as that's the only time she knew her child ate.

It will in her eyes be your fault.

Every day's a school day. I never knew you could make hummus with raw chickpeas.

I wonder if the bread is because of the yeast. Anyway, OP as she'd specifically mentioned bread I might have steered clear but it's a tough call with a hungry child. Poor love.

I would guess that by 6, if the child is going to parties, even if he is taking his own snacks, it will be easy enough for him to sneak a sandwich/sausage roll/cupcake if he wants, unless someone is keeping an eagle eye on him the entire time.

You can't assume that though. He may have had it drummed into him like other children have about not taking food because it may contain .......

Well, given that he was demanding bread (which presumably he knows is 'forbidden' as he'd never eaten it before, and the OP even said Mummy wouldn't want him to have it etc), I think he would probably be quite likely to grab something from a table of party food. As indeed my raised-vegetarian niece did with ham sandwiches from about the age of four.

OP, you don't know me from Adam, but I am veggie, got my own ishoos with what a child should eat etc, I'm no Earth mother but I won't be seen dead feeding a kid a Mac for instance etc.
BUT, I was in your position a few years ago, went the extra friggin thousand mile only to conclude some people are absolute freaks, it makes no sense and it's not worth wasting time. The woman didn't know herself what she was/wanted, some aberations were spouted, I watched in disbelief, heck, I even asked if she is aware what I do for a living, because she was trying to convince me of some absolute nonsense.
Boggles the mind.
Ignore. You've done what anyone with common sense would have done.

Whether the mum ibu for giving her child a raw vegan diet is another question really, her decisions on that front aren't up for debate here. But you were bu in a big way by giving your children a different meal to their guest and thereby dangling temptation in front if him/rubbing it in that what he was eating was different. If the burger meal was (rightly or wrongly, who knows perhaps the other mum was compromising a little by agreeing to the burger/meeting you halfway/being pragmatic) approved by the other mum then it would have been by far the obvious answer to give them all the same meal. I don't think singling the vegan boy out by giving him a different meal was very hospitable. I'd be very concerned at the idea of feeding a child a food like bread that he's never had before - he could be left pretty ill from digesting something so new.

Maybe his mum stays at parties. Maybe he doesn't even go.

And chances are he was trying his luck.

I don't think op should have given the bread. But I do think she was more than accommodating and kind and that she acted in what she genuinely felt were the child's best interests with no motive other than make sure child had a good time and was happy and fed.

I agreed earlier that it makes no sense re the vege burgers as vegan ones aren't that easy to come by tey often contain egg and nearly all contain rusk/breadcrumbs etc.

But I do think that she was asked not to and she doesn't know fully why he's not allowed it. It may be more complex than a raw vegan issue.

And I don't think making assumptions That he's probably taken something non vege, is a good idea. Maybe he has maybe he hasn't but an adult knowingly giving something is different to a child sneaking something and a mum expecting at a birthday party to be supervising one child is not on and she should stay of it means so much to her.

I bet little 'James' will end up running a veal farm!

You did your best, OP.

I took some children away last week (teacher) to a place where lunch was provided. We have one vegan. He was provided with soup and dips. However, the majority of the bread was unlabelled (bakery stuff) so we didn't risk it. The labelled, sliced, very cheap bread was fine - no egg or dairy. I had asked the place to keep all labels so he could read and double check everything, to be sure for himself.

It seemed odd that the cheapest, nastiest bread was the most vegan. Maybe feeding him bread might not have been her choice, but breasd can be vegan fairly easily, including the stuff I make at home.

monkeymama Any mother who is happy to let her child eat a commercially produced veggie burger cannot be following an exclusively raw vegan diet.

There was another thread on here recently where the OP was castigated for not making enough effort with a child who refused pizza and pancakes. How amusing that this OP is being criticised by so,e for accommodating the wishes of a child!

I'm veggie, but if one of the DC wanted to eat meat at someone else's house, I'd say that was their business. Poor SIL called me in a panic one day when the eldest was 9 - he'd never had meat before but fancied the pepperoni on her DC's pizza. I told her to just give it to him. As happens, he doesn't like pepperoni, but later tried her chicken and liked that. He eats meat at her house and every so often at restaurants now. Her eldest DC has since gone veggie.

I'd love it if all the DC grew up to make exactly the same decisions I have, cuz I'm perfect :), but that's unlikely to happen.

OP, I may have avoided feeding him bread in case he actually was coeliac or something. But it's hard to deny a child something that seems normal to you. He'll probably grow up to be a pastry chef.

I think she was totally within her rights to be cross with you. You have her child bread and had been asked not to. Would you give someone with a peanut allergy a nut? Or would you give someone who got eczema from milk a glass of milk. Even if there are no food intolerances, you should respect her wishes. If the boy was truly hungry he would have eaten the veggie burger.

Also as a country we do eat far too much wheat. It's crap highly refined stuff and the gluten is a hidden issue for many.

Hence me saying 'rightly or wrongly...' - ie my comment was about the OP and what happened, not the kid's mum and the ins and outs of her lifestyle choices. She's not on here to explain/defend herself, OP is. Different dishes for the kids eating was not on IMO.

Sorry that post was in answer to caitlin17

You did the best you could. Poor kid, even my hamster gets a bit of cheese every now and again.

Microferret, wrt tour post of 14.44 today, I'm sorry but you are mistaken about B12 in animal products, it is not "Contamination" of animal protein that gives it it's (very) high vit B12 content.

It's true what you say, b12 is synthesised only be certain bacteria, however the animals that have these bacteria as part of their normal gut bacteria absorb the b12 and use it to build their tissues. The b12 is then part of the meat.

Shellfish, many scaly fish and beef and lamb especially the livers, and the livers, have very high levels of B12 - a single portion can have many times your daily requirements (and your liver is able to store about a years supply, after that store is full, any extra is excreted).

Eggs, cheese, milk, chicken have some but a lot less.

Even vegetarian diets can be dangerously low in B12 unless yeast supplements are taken, as eggs cheese and milk may not contain enough, unless you are eating a lot of them. By a lot I mean about 12-15 eggs a day (or equivalent mix of egg/cheese/milk).

YADNOTBU I follow a 'faddy' blood type way of eating but there is no way that I would expect my dcs to do the same unless they wished it. of course they should eat what they want at parties etc.

As microferret says banning anything leads to obessions IMO.

RawCoconutMacaroon, are you saying that for a vegetarian to have enough B12 daily, that they would need to eat 12 to 15 eggs (or equivalent dairy) every day?

No one could possibly manage that, so unless you take a supplement/yeast extract, all vegetarians are going to be suffering from B12 anaemia?

We got chatting a few days ago and she mentioned how she desperately just wanted a day to herself, to clear her head etc, so I offered to take her DS for today (Bank holiday) to give her some alone time.

This is why YANBU . You did a very nice and kind thing OP . If the mother cannot forget 'breadgate' and move on , she will find that there are fewer free childfree day options in the future .

I thought this thread was long because there was updates on the mum, but it's just a bunfight. Dissapointed :(

Ah, but it's a gluten-free-bun fight Galactus