annoyed vegan mum

[PairOfTerrors]

Hi everyone

Something happened today and I am still wondering how I should have approached it. I am fully ready for people to say IWU, but would love some insight either way.

My twin DS' are in year 1 and a little boy joined at the beginning of the academic year who has been raised raw vegan (only child, single parent family.) He gets on well with DS' and I don't know the mum too well but I've heard through the grapevine that she has been under a lot of stress lately for various reasons. We got chatting a few days ago and she mentioned how she desperately just wanted a day to herself, to clear her head etc, so I offered to take her DS for today (Bank holiday) to give her some alone time.

She always gives DS his own snacks for parties etc, and she told everyone quite early on about her way of eating, just so things were clear and people didn't start asking her lots of questions. Her and DS only really eat raw, uncooked foods such as fruits, vegetables nuts and seeds. She also said they don't eat bread (I am not too clued up on raw veganism so am not 100% sure on the reasoning)

Anyhow I was out doing the food shop yesterday and noticed some yummy looking veggie burgers. DH and I are not vegetarian but I grew up with a vegetarian sister so my DM would often buy veggie options so I actually really love veggie burgers and we often have them. They came in packs of 6 so I thought I'd buy them, give one to (let's call him James) and then DH, my 2 and I could have 4 (with one leftover) for dinner. I also bought lots of nice fruit to make him a fruit salad (we are usually very boring with fruit, just apples, oranges, bananas, the occasional pear!) but I got some mangoes, pineapple and a few other things. I knew his mum would pack him a lunch but I thought, just to take the stress off a little, I'd get him a few things also.

So I phone her a couple of hours later to confirm everything was still on and she said it was and that she'd make him a lunch. I told her about what I bought and she seemed really touched and said she'd pack him some carrot sticks and hummus too (his favourite). So James comes round today and come lunch time, he has his veggie burger with a side of sweet corn, peas and some avocado, with his fruit salad for afters. My 2 were having cheese ham and salad sandwiches and a yogurt after. James takes one look at his meal, looks at my kids' sandwiches, and refuses to eat his. Now I KNOW he likes veggie burgers, it's what he seems to often have at parties and when I spoke to his mum on the phone I double checked, and I told her that it's not a problem if he doesn't like them as I'm sure DH and I could finish off the spare one out of the pack of 6 (so I really don't feel like she felt obliged to say yes he does like them just to be polite). I'm sure she'd have said "actually sorry but he's not really keen on them..." or whatever. But as I say I have definitely seen him eat them before and I was assured they would be fine.

I noticed he wasn't eating (he nibbled on the carrot sticks and avocado) so asked if he wasn't hungry. He said that he was, but could he please have a sandwich. I told him that he had his veggie burger instead etc etc and he just said he didn't want it and would rather have a sandwich. I said that I don't think his mummy would want him having a sandwich and yada yada (basically trying to convince him to eat his burger. I also asked him if there was anything he wanted instead) and he was adamant he wanted a sandwich. I tried ringing his mum to get her opinion, and perhaps she could speak to him but it went straight to voicemail. I tried twice more in the space of 30 minutes and texted her but still no reply. It all seemed strange because as I say he always has his own snacks at parties and I've never seen him complain or demand to eat what the other children are. He doesn't know any different so why now did he suddenly want some bread too? He was clearly hungry but determined he didn't want to eat his burger or even his fruit salad. At this point I'm thinking a) give him some bread, although it may piss mum off or b) let him go hungry which is firstly mean and secondly would his mum be angry and actually say something well "so he hasn't eaten all day? Could you not have just given him a little bread??"

Thinking that the latter would be worse, I caved and gave him one slice of bread which he had with his avocado and some tomato. He scoffed it down and 2 minutes later they ran off to carry on playing. Anyway fast forward to pick up time and I told his mum he had refused to eat any of his food so I gave him some bread. She immediately looked horrified, like I had told her I had murdered a kitten. She said "oh...really? Ok then...was there nothing else he could have had instead of the burger?" I told her that I had offered to make him other things (hell I even had whipped my phone out and googled "raw vegan recipes for kids!" and read off a few things but he insisted no...he wanted the bread. I told her I didn't want him going hungry and she said "well ok then, you do realise (in a sort of half laughy scoffy type voice) that that's the first time he's eaten bread??"

Now as I say I am not clued up on raw veganism. I understand it is very strict, far more so than "regular" veganism, but hell it's not like I had given him a hotdog or even a piece of cheese! It was a slice of bread..I don't mean to be disrespectful of someone else's lifestyle but I really didn't think she'd react like that and like I said earlier, I was worried that she'd be annoyed at me for letting him go hungry and actually suggest that I could have given him just a little piece. Oh and she hadn't answered her phone as it was dead and she had left her charger at work.

So they left with her pretty pissed off with me. And now I'm just wondering how in the wrong I was, or what I should have done. I know nothing can be changed now and I apologised but what would you have done? Is she right to be pissed off? Am I right to be pissed off?

It also a "eating disorder" that many cultures "suffered from", but then they were not white and British, so I suppose that makes their beliefs invalid.

poor kid. Veganism is not compatible with our species, so she needs to give him B12 supplements or he could die of anaemia.

but what a kick in the teeth for doing her a favour! Don't apologise.

OP you did really well in the circumstances, I feel slightly sorry for the kid, it seems as though she has put him on such an unusually srict diet but hasn't mentioned any allergies or anything, so it's just for 'belief' reasons...

And so what if it is for belief? Does this apply to all groups of people who have a different diet for religious reasons etc? Or just the vegans?

""so it's just for 'belief' reasons...""

Why isn't that a good enough reason?

The food industry has gotten massive, they work closely with suppliers and advertisers.

Dies this mean that we cannot individually research what this means and set our own ethics/beliefs?

Our world is created, we have the right to decide what aspects we want no part of.

This isn't about any belief system though, it's about respecting the views if others and being able to say no to a child.

I think that you should have served all the children the same thing although probably none of them would have had much so really it was a no win situation.

I wouldn't worry that much about upsetting the mother though as she sounds like a bit of a nut and you would upset her sooner or later whatever you do. I'm sure that her poor son will be eating what he wants to eat behind her back anyway before long (assuming he's not allergic to anything or has coeliac disease). It sounds as if he is just starting to rebel...

It sounds like you are very kind OP. I feel very sorry for the little boy, it is going to be increasingly difficult for him as he gets older and starts to want to make his own choices.

Veganism is not compatible with our species, so she needs to give him B12 supplements or he could die of anaemia.

I think marmite would work although that it heavily processed so may not fit in with her beliefs.

poor kid. Veganism is not compatible with our species, so she needs to give him B12 supplements or he could die of anaemia.

That's just not true. It is possible to be a perfectly healthy vegan and not need to rely on vitamin supplements. (It's also possible to be an omnivore and eat a very unhealthy diet deficient in nutrients.) There are vegan sources of vitamin B12 including nutritional yeast, marmite and fortified soya milk/cereals etc. Anaemia can be fatal but only in severe cases and you can ensure you are getting enough vitamin B12 without needing to take a vitamin supplement.

It sounds like you are very kind OP. I feel very sorry for the little boy, it is going to be increasingly difficult for him as he gets older and starts to want to make his own choices.

So you think it a stranger should make that decision? And potentially give that child an upset stomach? Because said stranger doesn't agree with principles? Thats not kind, its controlling and interfering. Fwiw, I was happy for my children to eat meat in a carefully introduced way if they chose to. Not by a stranger giving them foods they had never eaten before, just because they felt sorry for them

vegan

Yanbu...you felt under pressure, and made a snap decision. You were damned if you did and damned if you didn't.

If I were you, I'd most likely feel regretful that I made the wrong decision, but at the same time I wouldn't dwell on it either. As if I haven't got enough to worry about as it is.
If his mum is going to impose a stringent, principled diet on him, it is up to her to discipline him into sticking to it. It's their business.
The rest of us are not that interested. Folks will generally do their best to show respect to and accomodate those lifestyle choices, but as with anything, she can't realistically expect the world to revolve around them as she does.

If she wishes for her son to visit the homes of friends and have a social life outside of the home, then she's going to have to loosen up a bit. Imo.

I think she was very fucking rude tbh.

You were doing her a favour. You tried your best with the child's very restrictive diet and made a bad judgement out of desperation.

Unless he has a serious allergy (which I doubt or the mother would have mentioned it), he's unlikely to have any terrible after effects from eating a piece of bread.

Brian you quoted my post then went on some tangential ranty argument which has no relevance at all to my point. Where exactly do I say that a stranger should make decisions? Nowhere actually.
This is a forum for opinions and discussion. You are free to hold your opinions but I get for mine?
Let me clarify for you. The op sounds kind to offer to take the child and give the mother a break, that is surely not a point of argument?
Nowhere in the long op is it stated that there are any dietary requirements or religious beliefs, there are definitely strong personal choices, and that is fine for the adult. The child will start to make his own choices as he grows up and may rebel against his mothers strongly held choices, this may make his relationship more difficult with his mum.
If you want to argue please get your points in order first.

Chesterberry, what exactly is the difference between eating "fortified" foodstuffs and taking a vitamin supplements?

Not saying veganism is unhealthy per se, but getting enough B12 IS problematic on a vegan diet.

Genuine question, I understand that coeliacs have to be incredibly vigilant about what they eat, because something made without gluten, on a production line AFTER something else containing gluten can become contaminated and it can still cause problems for coeliacs.

Is this the same for those intolerant or is there a bit more wiggle room? (Ie, does the miniscule amount of gluten from cross contamination affect an intolerance in the same way it would a allergy)

I think there are two main issues here: 1) the possible danger of making the child ill if he had never eaten bread/gluten before (hard to tell, but unlikely to be life-threatening), and 2) whether a child that age has the right to make his own choices about what he eats, independently from the (rather extreme and socially difficult) diet his mother chooses for him. That is a difficult one - I think at age 5/6 it is still borderline, but the mother won't have the right or ability to control his diet outside the home so strictly for much longer.

I am vegetarian and am bringing my children up as vegetarians/pescetarians, but I recognise that they are their own people and will eventually make their own decisions about what to eat (as I did myself as a teenager, having been brought up in a meat-eating family). At five or six I might have been a little annoyed if my children had asked for and been given meat at a playdate, but I would talk it through with them, and certainly by 7 or 8 I think they are capable of making some choices like that for themselves. My niece, brought up in a vegetarian family, decided for herself to eat meat at nursery and school, and her parents have accepted that.

There have been a few threads on here posted by people whose children have decided at very young ages that they didn't want to eat meat (having discovered that it was dead animals), and generally people seem to think that the children are capable of making that decision for themselves, even though it can be rather awkward for the parents.

I don't see why you should have served everyone the same thing. You were being asked to accommodate a very specific dietary requirement and your own DC will have their own preferences & foibles (as all children do).

I think you did the best you could in the circumstances and she'd be very rude to hold that against you.

I think it's going to be quite difficult for the mum to maintain her child's vegan / raw diet as the child gets older because of exactly these kinds of situations.

I'm veggie and brought up my eldest as veggie until she went to school where she discovered meat and now eats it at every possible opportunity. I sort of gave up with trying to keep the other two veggie after that as I had to concede both that my family doesn't live in a vacuum and also that it was kind of up to my kids to make decisions about what they wanted to eat or not.

I also have a child with allergies. This is completely different. When she visits other people's houses, I have to be very clear with the adults about what she can and can't eat and exactly what would happen if she has the wrong thing (anaphylaxis). Where appropriate, I send her with food. She has also been drilled to religiously ask "Does this have nuts?" before eating anything that someone other than myself gives her. If I didn't do this, I would consider that I was seriously putting my child's health at risk. It doens't sound like this is the case for your visitor OP.

I agree exexpat. Although I probably would have tried to cater for the mother's beliefs with a child in year one there comes a point where the child has the right to make their own choices.

Is this the same for those intolerant or is there a bit more wiggle room?

I'm intolerant to a couple of things, but I'm not sure precisely what because most of my diet is mixed up. I know I can't eat whole eggs, and I feel very uncomfortable after too much soft cheese and full fat milk. Bread isn't ideal, but I don't know why.

Reactions vary between instant squits (sorry) for egg, particularly egg-white, but I seem to be OK with cake with egg in it. I'm not OK with egg in savoury stuff (meatballs), but for some reason the mixing with flour seems to resolve some of it. I feel bloated and uncomfortable (and my stomach visibly distends from time to time, and I don't know what causes it. Now I've cut most of the milk-fat from my diet, I can absorb enough other stuff to put on weight.

It's up to me to risk assess wether that brie and ham sandwich is really worth how I will feel afterwards. Mostly it's not. Sometimes I really desperately want that brie.

So that's my intolerances. I'm not going to go into anaphylactic shock - but depending on what I've eaten, I'll probably have some reaction from 'gosh, this is uncomfortable' to 'I really need a bathroom for the next hour'.

Contrast that with the Coeliac child I'm teaching - if she eats something that's been prepared on a surface that's been used to make a sandwich, she'll start vomiting pretty immediately.

I understand what people say about faddy diets and intolerances almost devaluing other people's allergies, but I really wish that didn't happen. I think it's fine for both the Coeliac child and I to both say; 'sorry, but I can't eat that friend egg sandwich' and to coexist happily. Yes, she will have the more immediate and severe reaction, and if one of us had to be forced to eat the egg sandwich, I'd certainly step up and take one for the team, but it ought to be OK to say; 'I can't eat that - I have a reaction' without someone returning 'well is it an actual allergy? Because I'll make an alternative for someone with an actual allergy...'

So in answer - yes, I have wiggle room with intolerances, but in general, I'd go with whatever the other person says.

YANBU,

I'm veggie, I don't expect my DCs to be veggie, but I feed them veggie food IYKWIM.

You are unlucky enough to be the first person to introduce this child in to the real world of difficult decisions, grey areas, and downright contradictions in diet. I think you did your best, and many would have been much more insensitive than you with this diet. I agree that a cooked veggie burger is processed food and not "raw vegan". I respect her decision to try and eat raw vegan food, and I'm sure we (and the planet) would all be healthier if we ate more of it, BUT...

Its just not possible to enforce in the real world for a child. I would say that if she wants him to want to eat that diet she may have to let him 'try' the other foods so he doesn't build them up into something amazing that he's missing. It sounds like allergies and intolerance to food groups aren't what's driving this.

I hope she sees that you did her a great favour, and she will find that the families of other children she lets him play with will be much less able to work with her requirements...

The thing that hit me about this is that she wasn't available to speak to you on the phone. You could have been trying to speak to hear about something very serious. Hindsight's a great thing and yes, with hindsight you could have fed them all the same. Bottom line for me though is that when you had a problem she wasn't available for you to speak to her about it. After that, you did your best, which was all you could do in the circumstances.

This is actually quite tricky tbh. Because it's such an extreme diet alot of people's first reaction is going to be "well that's further than I would have gone" or "poor kid if have given him a burger"

Now yes it is extreme and I can see why you did what you did. And certainly with all the effort you went to no one can say there was much more you could have done. And tbh if they are fussed about raw then the vege burger makes no sense anyway as many contain egg albumin. So I can see why you have the impression you do.

But being bread doesn't make it more acceptable that you have a forbidden food.

However, if you were my friend is be grateful you looked after him for me and I'd not hold it against you as you meant well and it wasn't like you deliberately have it to him to stick two fingers up at raw Veganism.

I'd make a mental to be clearer next time and be contactable.

You did a nice thing so don't feel bad.

You were under pressure- but if they said no bread, I would not give bread.

I tend to stick with what the parents say even if I don't think it's a good idea- especially as he did have carrots and hummus even if he didn't want that.

I would be too afraid something would go wrong (allergy) to give something I was expressly told not to do.

YANBU Very sad when someone passes their eating disorder onto a child. Worse when they expect others to follow their personal neuroses.