annoyed vegan mum

[PairOfTerrors]

Hi everyone

Something happened today and I am still wondering how I should have approached it. I am fully ready for people to say IWU, but would love some insight either way.

My twin DS' are in year 1 and a little boy joined at the beginning of the academic year who has been raised raw vegan (only child, single parent family.) He gets on well with DS' and I don't know the mum too well but I've heard through the grapevine that she has been under a lot of stress lately for various reasons. We got chatting a few days ago and she mentioned how she desperately just wanted a day to herself, to clear her head etc, so I offered to take her DS for today (Bank holiday) to give her some alone time.

She always gives DS his own snacks for parties etc, and she told everyone quite early on about her way of eating, just so things were clear and people didn't start asking her lots of questions. Her and DS only really eat raw, uncooked foods such as fruits, vegetables nuts and seeds. She also said they don't eat bread (I am not too clued up on raw veganism so am not 100% sure on the reasoning)

Anyhow I was out doing the food shop yesterday and noticed some yummy looking veggie burgers. DH and I are not vegetarian but I grew up with a vegetarian sister so my DM would often buy veggie options so I actually really love veggie burgers and we often have them. They came in packs of 6 so I thought I'd buy them, give one to (let's call him James) and then DH, my 2 and I could have 4 (with one leftover) for dinner. I also bought lots of nice fruit to make him a fruit salad (we are usually very boring with fruit, just apples, oranges, bananas, the occasional pear!) but I got some mangoes, pineapple and a few other things. I knew his mum would pack him a lunch but I thought, just to take the stress off a little, I'd get him a few things also.

So I phone her a couple of hours later to confirm everything was still on and she said it was and that she'd make him a lunch. I told her about what I bought and she seemed really touched and said she'd pack him some carrot sticks and hummus too (his favourite). So James comes round today and come lunch time, he has his veggie burger with a side of sweet corn, peas and some avocado, with his fruit salad for afters. My 2 were having cheese ham and salad sandwiches and a yogurt after. James takes one look at his meal, looks at my kids' sandwiches, and refuses to eat his. Now I KNOW he likes veggie burgers, it's what he seems to often have at parties and when I spoke to his mum on the phone I double checked, and I told her that it's not a problem if he doesn't like them as I'm sure DH and I could finish off the spare one out of the pack of 6 (so I really don't feel like she felt obliged to say yes he does like them just to be polite). I'm sure she'd have said "actually sorry but he's not really keen on them..." or whatever. But as I say I have definitely seen him eat them before and I was assured they would be fine.

I noticed he wasn't eating (he nibbled on the carrot sticks and avocado) so asked if he wasn't hungry. He said that he was, but could he please have a sandwich. I told him that he had his veggie burger instead etc etc and he just said he didn't want it and would rather have a sandwich. I said that I don't think his mummy would want him having a sandwich and yada yada (basically trying to convince him to eat his burger. I also asked him if there was anything he wanted instead) and he was adamant he wanted a sandwich. I tried ringing his mum to get her opinion, and perhaps she could speak to him but it went straight to voicemail. I tried twice more in the space of 30 minutes and texted her but still no reply. It all seemed strange because as I say he always has his own snacks at parties and I've never seen him complain or demand to eat what the other children are. He doesn't know any different so why now did he suddenly want some bread too? He was clearly hungry but determined he didn't want to eat his burger or even his fruit salad. At this point I'm thinking a) give him some bread, although it may piss mum off or b) let him go hungry which is firstly mean and secondly would his mum be angry and actually say something well "so he hasn't eaten all day? Could you not have just given him a little bread??"

Thinking that the latter would be worse, I caved and gave him one slice of bread which he had with his avocado and some tomato. He scoffed it down and 2 minutes later they ran off to carry on playing. Anyway fast forward to pick up time and I told his mum he had refused to eat any of his food so I gave him some bread. She immediately looked horrified, like I had told her I had murdered a kitten. She said "oh...really? Ok then...was there nothing else he could have had instead of the burger?" I told her that I had offered to make him other things (hell I even had whipped my phone out and googled "raw vegan recipes for kids!" and read off a few things but he insisted no...he wanted the bread. I told her I didn't want him going hungry and she said "well ok then, you do realise (in a sort of half laughy scoffy type voice) that that's the first time he's eaten bread??"

Now as I say I am not clued up on raw veganism. I understand it is very strict, far more so than "regular" veganism, but hell it's not like I had given him a hotdog or even a piece of cheese! It was a slice of bread..I don't mean to be disrespectful of someone else's lifestyle but I really didn't think she'd react like that and like I said earlier, I was worried that she'd be annoyed at me for letting him go hungry and actually suggest that I could have given him just a little piece. Oh and she hadn't answered her phone as it was dead and she had left her charger at work.

So they left with her pretty pissed off with me. And now I'm just wondering how in the wrong I was, or what I should have done. I know nothing can be changed now and I apologised but what would you have done? Is she right to be pissed off? Am I right to be pissed off?

Whilst I think she was rude and silly, people do have good reasons for following this sort of diet. Similar to people who only feed their dogs raw meat, many people believe that cooking food destroys most of its health properties and can in fact render it carcinogenic ( as has been proven with burnt food). And it is felt gluten can cause lots of chronic problems because the body has trouble processing it because it's not something we would have come across much of in wild, so to speak. So whilst I am too lazy to try to follow this sort of diet myself, I can understand why other people do. It's generally because they're trying to protect their child from lots of the health issues that might be linked to diet, such as eczema, cancers, etc etc.

Poor poor child. She sounds unwell

Buzzardbird - no, raw vegan is not "low carb", it's pretty much extremely high carb (all fruits and veg are carbohydrate foods). Vegan diets are very low on essential proteins and essential fats and it needs very very careful planning to get enough of the essential protein and fat the body can't make. IMO it is not suitable for a child (or an adult for that matter but that is their own free choice). It sounds like this child, at age 6 is wanting to make some of his own dietary choices, and that is something the mum is going to have to get used to.

"Gluten fad" comments make my blood boil. Coeliac disease is the very small tip of a very large iceberg as far as the health problems caused be gluten (and other components of wheat and other grains such as lectins, WGA, and the insoluble grain fibres they contain).

I don't have coeliac (as far as I know, blood testing showed antibodies but not high enough for a positive result). I do react very fast, within 15-20 min, to even trace amounts of wheat, rye and barley, and to larger amounts of wheat-free oats and also to Maize derivatives like cornflour.
I used to be very sick, for many years I suffered with ibs, chronic headache and migraine, arthritis, skin issues, the list goes on and on.

I now eat completely grain free (paleo/primal) with the exception of a little white rice occasionally. And all of my illnesses have disappeared.

However, shopping is a nightmare. I need to cook everything from scratch and be very very carful reading labels - to those scoffing at things like seeds or nuts etc being marked as "gluten free", I suggest you start looking a labels!!!
Flavoured nuts often have gluten or wheat derivatives in, spirit vinegar is in many things and gives me gut ache even though it "should" be gf, most cold cooked meats have gluten or wheat derivatives injected into them or basted over them, and I can't eat those either... Read the ingredient list on some cooked chicken next time you are in a supermarket!

So I'm one of those faddy gluten-free people, although doubtless in the eyes of many "crazy" as I avoid all grains. I have been called that.

So what do I eat? What we should all be eating! Real food, which is minimally processed and not full of additives and synthetic chemicals. ie fruits, veg, nuts and seeds, eggs, meats and natural fats like butter and coconut oil. Interested persons might want to look at Marksdailyapple blog, or Wheatbelly blog and see what they think.

But that's kind of going off on a tangent from the OP , so I'll go off into a corner and mutter to myself about the evils of gluten...

Yadnbu. You went out of your way to help this mum. You were already doing her a massive favour. You did your best under difficult circumstances.

If someone had gone to those lengths to accommodate my child, I'd be giving them a big slobbery kiss!

Your roof, your rules, imo.

I think that YABU. You knew the kid wouldn't have normally had bread and there was plenty of "allowed" food available if he was really hungry. However, I also think the other mum was being unreasonable. She didn't clearly explain their diet to you (raw vegan, but allowed to eat veggie burgers does kind of muddy the water)!

It sounds like for the most part you were very considerate in buying and providing food that was suitable for the little boy and in discussing his diet with his mum before-hand. In hindsight yes, you should have given all children the same to avoid this situation. I think the boy was probably testing the boundaries with somebody new too, his mum obviously doesn't have much room for lee-way around his diet (although judging by the veggie burgers isn't following a strict raw vegan diet) and he thought he would have more luck with you. He was right and I think again in hindsight you definitely should have stood your ground - you were providing him with food you knew he liked so I think had he been hungry he would have eaten the food provided once he realised you meant it when you said no.

That said he is only little and he is not your child to be really firm with so I can see why, in the moment, you would waver on whether to give him bread or not. His mum should have been contactable - when someone else has your child you should always be available - and it is reasonable, when the parents is out of range, to make your own parenting judgement. Obviously you don't follow a raw vegan diet, there are no obvious animal ingredients in bread (although as mentioned up thread many brands contain milk or milk by-products and some contain other animal derivatives) and so to you a slice of bread given to a child isn't really such a big deal. To the mum this is a big deal, she obviously has her own reasons for following the diet she does and avoiding the foods she does and I don't think she was unreasonable to be a bit upset. I am vegan and will likely raise my daughter as such and I would be upset if other people gave her animal products to eat in my absence. But if I had been uncontactable I would take the blame. In this situation I would see it was an honest mistake and not an attempt to sabotage my child's diet! Equally I think there should be a point at which children are given control to make their own dietary choices and that parents shouldn't impose their values on the children. I think at 6 the child is old enough to say 'actually I want to try bread' and for his mum not to stop him, although under normal circumstances I wouldn't exercise that view with someone else's child! These weren't normal circumstances for you and it was a mistake but you clearly didn't set out when you invited him over to sabotage the diet (and tried to call mum before giving something you hadn't agreed on prior to the playdate) so I feel your mistake should definitely be forgiven.

YWNBU. I think the mum does have a right to be pissed off at the fact her son ate bread, however she doesn't have the right to feel pissed off at you for more than a very short period as it was a mistake on your part and not intentional. She should have been contactable. Hopefully once she has got over the initial surprise she will calm down and see that you made a judgement error and weren't trying to be malicious or sabotage her diet. She probably comes across a lot of people who criticise her raw vegan diet, especially in relation to feeding her son that way, and as such may feel on the defensive about it.

You also have the right to be pissed off that the mum wasn't contactable and that you were forced to make a judgement call which, in hindsight, wasn't what the boy's mum would have done. I think you were right to apologise, if I hadn't heard from her again in a few days I might apologise again and add that since this happened you've read up on raw veganism and that you have a better understanding of why they don't eat bread. Ensure she knows it was an honest mistake and that you respect their diet. If she remains pissed off with you beyond a day or two or won't accept your apology then she is definitely being unreasonable.

The poor kid.

He'll be up to his neck in Big Macs the first chance he gets.

To RawCoconut and others re the "devil gluten" comment. I totally get what the op meant. I'm coeliac and do understand that many other people benefit health wise from a gf diet. However some people adopt it for purely faddish reasons, (think I remember reading in a sleb mag about some "actor" who ate gf as her nutrionist told her gluten was unnatural and processed and made her fat)
Ty to heyday and the other posters who gave voice to the informed opinion that such a restrictive diet was not a great on to impose on a small child. (I thought it, but was scared of the flaming)

There's some evidence that many people who think that they're intolerant of gluten are actually fine with gluten, but are actually intolerant of other ingredients instead:
www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/05/14/gluten-intolerance-fake_n_5327420.html

I think you did the best you could in the situation. She is unreasonable for not being contactable or very grateful for the childcare. I think if she was so concerned about his diet she should not have left him.

What if he was much younger and about to receive free school dinners what would she do then? (Are packed lunches still allowed under the new government initiative?).

I don't think you were BU at all - and I don't think you needed to apologise. You were put in a difficult position, you tried to contact her to clarify and she wasn't available. I would have done exactly the same thing in the circumstances.

As her DS grows up, he's going to become more and more aware of what others are eating around him and there are going to be more situations like this one. To be honest, I think she needs a better plan about how she's going to deal with them.

Is it possible that the bread was not vegan? If it contained milk or egg, for example?

Why on earth should you apologise?! She should apologise to you, more than that she should be jolly grateful you looked after her child and went to some lengths to accommodate her unusual lifestyle choices

I would have let the child go hungry for a little while. Once he realised there was no other option, he would have eaten the lunch his mum provided. He might not like it but she gets to choose his diet at the moment, not him.

Let's face it, plenty of children will turn down a sandwich but eat crisps, etc. Just because his diet is 'different' doesn't mean that he should have special treatment and be allowed to overrule his mum's decisions.

She expressly stated 'no bread' and you knew this. You gave him bread anyway, so I do think YABU.

I think if you are doing someone a favour and go out of your way to try and find a solution but can't and she answers you like that she is totally out of order and ungrateful.

I am under a lot of stress at the moment and desperately need a day to myself. Please will you have my kids?

You can feed them Haribo all day if you like and I'll still be on my knees with gratitude afterwards.

It's tricky, I agree in hindsight you should've given everyone the same thing. But you were in a new, difficult situation and you did your best.
She would BVU to hold this against you long term.

There's some evidence that many people who think that they're intolerant of gluten are actually fine with gluten, but are actually intolerant of other ingredients

I read that the other day. I am fine with most of the FODMAPs. Xanthan gum on the other hand ... which is a bummer as the GF bread with it in is pretty good.

*not the wheat FODMAPs, obv.

This thread reminds me of this quote:

"A lot of times when you're a vegetarian it is a just not very effective eating disorder"

• Lena Dunham

That Lena Dunham quote is just not true. Vegetarianism is a completely normal and healthy diet, the world over.

What I think she is getting at (clumsily and poorly explained) is that there can be a type of person who labels their eating disorder as vegetarianism, veganism, raw veganism, or whatever.

And what the hell is an "effective" eating disorder?!

Yadnbu! You sound like a fantastic person..and while I completely respect mums decision with regards to the raw vegan choice I can't help feeling a bit sorry for the ds..he's too little to understand the reasons behind mums choice and im sorry to say I think mum was a tad put of order for reacting the way she did..Is it really so bad if he has bread (unless he's intolerant of course). Sorry but I think its all a bit too full on at that age.

I think YABU, although I'm sure that was not your intention. It would have been better if all the kids had the same. Failing that I would have just left the food he had in front of him, and had a good chat with his mum about the problem as soon as possible. This reminds me a liitle bit of the nursery teacher who fed my vegetarian son chicken. I was wondering why his poo was particularly runny and smelly, until dd, who was a little older, told me what had happened. When I spoke to the teacher she admitted it. People might think its being a little whimsical and precious to follow a diet that is not the norm, but it really isn't their place to take it upon themselves to do something about it.

What is it on all these threads suddenly about Vegans?

""These burgers were 100% just vegetables, no added flour or anything. ""

I'm Vegan, there are only two types of burger that I can sometimes get in Supermarkets, they are not suitable for a raw diet.

Can you tell us the brand OP?

I don't believe that this happened exactly as you say.

Attitudes that have been displayed on this thread only are what puts us in seperate groups in society.

I often hear it said of Muslims/Orthodox Jews "why don't they try to mix more?", if you can't ensure a simple thing like food rules aren't stuck to, you can't mix with anyone who doesn't hold your views.

It isn't eating meat that I personally object to, it's the food industry and chemical companies etc. I don't want any other living creature to suffer unnecessarily, for my benefit.

If the child has a reaction as I do, to animal products, he will have stomach cramps and bloating for two days and go between constipation and diarrhoea.

So is having "my house, my rules" more important than your child (and you) welcoming people in that are different cultures, religions and beliefs?

I was bought up in a multi cultural family (in a multi cultural area), my Nan had run boarding houses for Seamen, so perhaps how you think is the norm, I do hope not, though.

ExBrighton, that Lena Dunham quote is joke...?

OP you did really well in the circumstances, I feel slightly sorry for the kid, it seems as though she has put him on such an unusually srict diet but hasn't mentioned any allergies or anything, so it's just for 'belief' reasons...

I am certain he will be at the Big Macs as soon a he can too!