To not want to write a list of chores for dh to do (to want him to just do more and show initiative)

[Frecklefeet]

I am 36 weeks pregnant and for the last few weeks I have asked dh to do more around the house. He is not too bad at doing housework but he tends to leave most to me, which I don't usually mind too much but now I'm feeling more tired and I want him to do more now and keep doing more when the baby comes.

He keeps asking me to write a list and organise the week and the days in regards to what needs doing, which I don't want to do, I just want him to do more and use initiative.

I had a look online for some articles (to email to him to prove I'm right) and they all seemed to support his request - that the woman should write a list of chores for the man etc and I think his is wrong. I am not fussy about how things are done, I just want to live in basic tidy and clean condition and don't want to be snowed under tonnes of washing etc so I want the chores kept on top of.

Fwiw both of us only work part time. He looks after ds some days, although he does work more than me so I do more childcare. Ds does go to nursery part time also. I will probably take 6 months maternity leave and then go back fewer hours than I do at the moment, dh will look after the baby until my hours increase and then the baby will go to nursery also.

So aibu? Should I have to write a list of chores? This feels like a huge chore in itself

stargazey they can see it. They just don't think it is their problem.

It's not just a list of chores though, is it?

"He keeps asking me to write a list and organise the week and the days in regards to what needs doing"

It's as if OP is handing her job over & it's a big thing!

I know you said you don't want to do this, but I'd stop doing chores and let them pile up. Then he'll have no excuse for not seeing what needs doing.

This would piss me right off. I'd bet my bottom dollar this individual doesn't have any problems using his initiative at work.

I haven't read the whole thread.

In our house, DH is more naturally inclined to clean and tidy than i am. There was a while that he got annoyed because i couldn't 'just see' what needed done. I've really tried, but there's no rhyme or reason to it.

Some days the toys on DS's bedroom floor annoy DH. Other times they don't. He will suddenly get wound up about the state of the cupboard when it's been like that for a fortnight. I requested a list too.

Why not get him to do that 'Fly Lady', if he wants some direction?

Then circle 7 recipes in a cook book you like and get him to cook one every day.

OP I just want to add my voice to those supporting your desire not to write a list for him. YANBU It sets you up as the manager in charge fo housewrk and the domestic domain and that's a chore that can get heavier and heavier, especially with children.

One of the bad things about you writing lists for him as an approach is that it lets him off the things that aren't on it. And it lets him off thinking about things that aren't on it. So if something new gets added to the tasks that need doing to keep the household running smoothly it is you that has to notice this and you that has to put it on the list. And if it doesn't get added to the list, or absorbed into your workload, it will be you that's responsible. Whether that's the fact your kid needs new shoes or to start going to the dentist, or that the extractor fan is no longer efficient and so the fridge door needs wiping down from time to time, or now you have kids who walk the coffee table needs cleaning every evening, or whatever comes up in your household, it will be up to you to realise this, decide if it's a task you should both care about, decide what's fair in terms of allocation of labour (but you'll still have to negotiate if he disagrees) and so then decide whether it should go on the list or not. And when your work hours change, or his work hours change, or someone gets sick and can't pull their weight, it will be up to you to adjust the list and it will something that constantly takes up space in your head that you want for other things.

It's also a signal. A signal from him to you that he sees it as your domain and your responsibility. Yes it is. I know lots of people on here think that sort of talk is absurd. He just doesn't see dirt/mess/etc. But it's not true. This is how women get socialised into "seeing" dirt and mess. They are made responsible for managing by others abdicating responsibility then everyone else gasping at how "unreasonable" they are when they try and do the same.

Sorry, I'm committing the sin of commenting without reading the whole thread. I just wanted to agree with you 100% - he is an adult who manages to work and once managed to live alone. He is only asking for a list to deflect his own responsibility and shift it onto you. The housework is your job, but he's happy to help you out, as long as you realise that you need to make a list of what needs doing and then micromanage his performance. Do you also need to buy the supplies ('yes, it says clean the toilet, but there's no cleaning products. You didn't write down on the list that I should buy them')? The housework is always your problem first and foremost, and he'll do what's asked, and if something isn't done, it's your job for failing to organise it.

That's some sexist shit, there, that is. He is not your teenaged son. He needs to start acting like a grown man.

"There was a while that he got annoyed because i couldn't 'just see' what needed done. I've really tried, but there's no rhyme or reason to it.

Some days the toys on DS's bedroom floor annoy DH."

But surely you "see" that if the wash box is full then a load of washing needs doing?

That after cooking a meal then stuff needs washing up, that stuff on the floor needs putting away?

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that if you want him to follow your priorities, you will need to explain what they are. If you want him to just do housework, you need to say "please set aside 45 minutes for housework every day and do what you think needs done most".

Mmmm well I have been 36 weeks pregnant on 4 occasions and belive me it doesn't compare for one single second to the trauma my dd suffers with PTSD.

Sorry op but I feel sorry for your dh.

"My main male role model (my father) while growing up was certainly not the stereotypical useless man in the home! He did his fair share and still does. Without being asked by my dm." This is great, OP! This is why you are not conditioned to accept all this as your job to do, manage, or delegate. But it is unusual and this is why you are meeting with resistance. don't be mistaken. Your DH is resisting you and there are many on this thread who are also resisting your attempts to change the status quo. God knows why they do it (actually I have some hypotheses but this is not the time and place)

Bogeyface, why does your version of the driving analogy make more sense than mine?

"FYI in the time it took to post all your messages and lists and do your research, you could have had a short email exchange (if that is your thing) with your DH and had it sorted." - no - you are confused about what stage the OP is at. Had she gone on mn instead of holding the initial stages of this conversation, that would have been a reasonable point. But the initial stages are over, she has failed to get what she asked for and has in fact been given more (different) work, so now she is seeking external advice.

We often hear from stonewalling men that there is something wrong with the manner in which we are expressing ourselves. when we get into this question of how and when they want to hear from us instead, we rarely get consistent answers. but it diverts the conversation into a criticism of us, instead of the stuff we want. the whole thing becomes a horrible psychological worm hole where you spiral off into endless attempts to find the "open sesame" - the words that will make it happen, delivered in the right way, at the right time. It won't happen. THEY DON'T WANT TO DO IT and they have the power to effectively refuse to do it.

I get sad when I hear women parrotting this stuff. About asking in the right way, writing lists in the right format, explaining gently, not getting hung up on standards, not criticising no matter how badly they do it, etc etc etc. It's not about us! We haven't done anything wrong! They just don't want to do it!

only that is naturally happening as it is.

I can't tidy as much, I haven't hoovered for a couple of weeks (dh does hoover every couple of weekends). I haven't done the bathroom/shower properly for a couple of months (although dh did do the shower a few days ago). I have been sweeping the floors into the corners and leaving the mess in the corners.

I have been staying on top of laundry, dishes, toilets, bed -changing/making, wiping of food prep/eating surfaces. I have also kept on top of the grocery shopping and have organised most of the meals. Dh does the weekend meals usually and shops for these separately.

I think what I'm doing are all essential and I don't mind doing them as I have the time and energy to do them.

I want dh to do the less essential things like tidying, hoovering more often, sweeping up the mess. As well as doing more of the essential things also to give me a break.

I really don't want to start playing games like leaving essential chores not done on purpose.

BoomBoomsCousin - what a great post. This is what struck me most

"So if something new gets added to the tasks that need doing to keep the household running smoothly it is you that has to notice this and you that has to put it on the list. [...](but you'll still have to negotiate if he disagrees)"

I feel really anxious just thinking about this. This is the kind of thing I tie myself up in knots about. And guess what... it is easier to absorb the task into your own workload.

I want dh to do the less essential things like tidying, hoovering more often, sweeping up the mess. As well as doing more of the essential things also to give me a break

So get together and sort out who does what. Together as a couple Don't expect him to be a bloody mind reader. It's not spoon feeding him, it's not being his manager, it's using common sense to agree TOGETHER who does what.

If you can't decide and agree together, stop complaining when he doesn't do exactly what you want him to.

I'd bet my bottom dollar this individual doesn't have any problems using his initiative at work.

I'd bet my bottom dollar he has set responsibilities at work.

household management for men. sexist title, practical book for telling him what needs doing and when. buy it for him, no need to write lists because they in there for him.

Capsium's got a great solution - instead of a list of chores, give him a list of websites or books to educate him on managing housework. Flylady is good, so's unfuck your habitat - both websites. Maybe you could do a pinterest for meals you fancy. Alternatively a How Clean Is Your House book and a Nigel Slater, all sorted.

I wonder why the OP felt the need to join MN to complain about this...

I recognise it's work for you but it's one off

You could tell him the story of give a man a fish, feed him for the day, give him a fishing net... Or find the old Oxfam advert, he'd even get a moving soundtrack to go with his realisation that he is responsible for the house he shares with you

DO not write a list. If you go down that role you will become the boss and he will forget to do certain things on that list arguments and resentment lies there.
Ask him to write the list so you both know what needs doing let him take ownership.
Its feck all todo with what sex you are or him.

Owl, the difference is that in the domestic sphere no one has a manager and what needs doing is not hard to grasp. I'd expect any competent adult, never mind one who's lived independently already, to be able to figure out if a floor needs sweeping, or to think that, if there's a pile of clean laundry, it should be put away. It's not the same as knowing that the spreadsheet for Mervyn in Finance has to include taxi spending and be sent by the first Monday of the month.

The OP has sald he doesn't like books and is slow at them. He has been quite specific that he needs her to write it down. Outsourcing this - books, websites, whatever - won't do. He needs her to take responsibility because him doing something to find this information out, means that he is taking responsibility, and that is precisely what he is refusing to do.

I read the reviews of that book "household management for men" and they were good - lots of people saying it was a really helpful book. However, the people who said that were the people who got hold of the book because they wanted to learn how to do this stuff. There were also references to husbands who had been given this book not liking it so much. It is obvious that if lack of knowledge is a genuine barrier, rather than will, than this book, or one of the websites mentioned, would be a great help. But it won't make anyone want to do housework. This is a red herring. it is not hard to learn how to do housework.

Does it have to be handwritten?

I'm sure printing out a Fly Lady (or the like) task for today would be very easy. I have an old household manual that gives a list of tasks to do and a timetable, a person just has to follow it. You could just photocopy the schedule.

I'm naturally quite messy and have a very high tolerance of mess, my dp doesn't. He wants more things done, more frequently and to a higher standart that I would want.

If I was living on my own, I could happily watch the washing up pile up until I was out of dishes. Collect dirty laundry on the floor until I was out of stuff.

He on the other end is the kind of person who irons bedding and tea towels. Regularly washes the floor (as opposed to waiting until it looks dirty).

If he asked me to do "more" and "use my initiative", I would be completely stumped. I'm an adult btw but chores are simply not on my radar. I literally (yes literally) don't see things a tidy person would see.

Now, you said he is naturally a clean and tidy person. So I realise things may be different but bear in mind that he still has different priorities that you do.

I'm trying to see things from his pov as to why he wants a list and what would be a fair view forward.

1. Some things are genuinely off his radar, toys on the floor but it's still possible to play. Laundry basket full (but Laundry basket not in his field of vision). Floor looks clean to him, so can wait till it looks dirty etc.

You need to have a conversation about what you both find important. What is a priority for you and what for him. If you find that the things you want him to do are high on your list of priorities, but low on his. You will have to definitely comprise and JUST WRITE HIM THE LIST and be grateful that he does stuff for you that ranks low on his list of priorities while you are pregnant and find it more difficult.

In our house there is an unwritten rule of if it bothers YOU, YOU clear it up.

2. You have taken over most household duties and he is afraid of interfering with your system/ upsetting you/ causing you more work. He wants to help and wants to do it right.

From what you write I actually get the feeling it may mostly be this problem: You say you have been doing most of the housework, have a system and a set way of doing something.
In this instance, where he is trying to help you in the most efficient way possible, I think it would only be fair, if you supported him in that wish. And while I think giving him a daily list, would be overkill for you and patronising to him to give him a daily updated to-do list, would it really be THAT hard to
a) have a "family meeting type conversation" conversation where you both outline all that needs doing, how often and who will do it.

or

b)give him a general checklist (one daily one weeklyy) of things he should look out for

or

c)Put a wipeable board in the kitchen with daily and weekly chores that get ticked off when done

3. He is creatively trying to avoid pulling his weight.

A list is your friend here . He will feel more committed to do things if he has a list that HE requested. If he doesn't you have visual proof which will aid you in the upcoming argument discussion.
Again a one time list of daily/weekly jobs should be sufficient.

Your dh sounds lovely by the way and I hope you two will find a solution that works for both of you.