To not want to write a list of chores for dh to do (to want him to just do more and show initiative)

[Frecklefeet]

I am 36 weeks pregnant and for the last few weeks I have asked dh to do more around the house. He is not too bad at doing housework but he tends to leave most to me, which I don't usually mind too much but now I'm feeling more tired and I want him to do more now and keep doing more when the baby comes.

He keeps asking me to write a list and organise the week and the days in regards to what needs doing, which I don't want to do, I just want him to do more and use initiative.

I had a look online for some articles (to email to him to prove I'm right) and they all seemed to support his request - that the woman should write a list of chores for the man etc and I think his is wrong. I am not fussy about how things are done, I just want to live in basic tidy and clean condition and don't want to be snowed under tonnes of washing etc so I want the chores kept on top of.

Fwiw both of us only work part time. He looks after ds some days, although he does work more than me so I do more childcare. Ds does go to nursery part time also. I will probably take 6 months maternity leave and then go back fewer hours than I do at the moment, dh will look after the baby until my hours increase and then the baby will go to nursery also.

So aibu? Should I have to write a list of chores? This feels like a huge chore in itself

The spoon theory Read this motherinferior. It will give you a better idea of what having an invisible disability is like, and why what you're saying is out of touch with reality.

He could have all the therapy in the world and it may not give him more spoons for his day. If she could save one of his spoons by writing out a list he might be able to "do his share" with more ease.

But more importantly, he's in therapy about whatever caused the PTSD and your biggest concern is that instead of working that, he discuss... being able to wash the dishes better...

princess you out it so much better than me. Yes absolutely agree 100%.

In defence of posters though. Most are lighthearted and suggest they havnt read the whole thread and others will have absolutely no idea how debilitating an anxiety illness/mental health issue is.

I don't think posters are being intentionally cruel here but it's the old If you can't see it then it's not real.

I had no idea how awful PTSD was until it smacked into our lives literally in seconds.

I hope a woman posting for help on PND gets better understanding and isnt just told to crack on with it love it's not rocket science is it!!!

I was wondering why "and then it is suggested he speak to his counsellor about it!" is being talked about in such aghast tones.

If you had this PND-suffering mother who is being posited as a counter example - although this is not a remotely symmetrical situation, btw, but whatever, for now - I bet you anything one of the diagnostic chats would be "and how are you coping with the day to day stuff?" and the answer, and her improvement or otherwise, would be one of the benchmarks of being ok or not.

and how is it so unkind to suggest that medical care should improve someone's ability to function? when I had SPD if someone had got me some therapy I would have been fucking overjoyed, not miffed that the implication was that I was expected to get better and walk around

"Men. Just. Don't. See. Things."

Except if things are in/ on their cars, the cleanliness of which they feel ownership. Or their desk at work, the cleanliness and orderliness of which they feel ownership. Or their tool-shed or work-shop, the cleanliness and organisation of which they feel ownership.

I feel terribly sorry for all those women who live with men who exploit them and have to embrace this sort of denial so that they can swallow the shit they're being shovelled by the men who claim to love them.

Your men do see things. They just don't think it's their problem, because it's your's. That's how much respect they have for you.

The OP wants more respect than you're prepared to settle for. Good for her.

As for the majority of men not pulling their weight?

Can't answer for those I don't know but my dh does, my dss do and all the couples I know divide chores.

Strange none need to email each other chores either.

They talk.

For crying out loud, one list:

Bedroom, make beds, tidy clothes / toys/ books, dust surfaces.
Bathroom, clean toilet bath and sink
Living room, plump cushions, tidy away papers / books / toys, dust surfaces.
Kitchen, load / unload dishwasher, wash up stuff, dry up stuff and put away, wipe surfaces, clean hob, check / clean grill / oven
Dining room, wipe table.
Whole house, vacuum / sweep floors, mop hard floors.
Load / unload washer, hang clothes to dry, put dry clothes away in wardrobes.
Ironing, iron clothes needed for next day.

This list is to be checked through and done as each job needs tackling. Can leave the oven, but will have to cook using the hob, if there is not enough time.

There simple.

AskBasil rtft!! Please

Look at the stats, thebody.

and how is it so unkind to suggest that medical care should improve someone's ability to function? when I had SPD if someone had got me some therapy I would have been fucking overjoyed, not miffed that the implication was that I was expected to get better and walk around

Yes, but that's not what's happening. It's the equivalent of him saying "I'm struggling to walk right now, can I use your shoulder?" and her saying "No, talk to your doctor for better crutches." On the mistaken impression that a pair of crutches will make him walk just as good as she can without taking into account that some days it will hurt to walk, some days even crutches won't help, and on his best days when he doesn't need crutches he'll still walk with a limp. Then deciding he can't walk because he's being lazy and that he should be able to walk because a family role model who never needed crutches in the first place was able to walk without them.

He made a simple request in an area he struggles with. He's willing to help out, if she just extended her hand and met him halfway. Yes, talk to the doctor about better crutches, but don't think that just because he has the best crutches in the world he can walk like a normal healthy person can.

PTSD doesn't go away, it gets managed. He will always have this. He can't just go to the doctor and be cured. It won't go away like depression will if he keeps at therapy and medication for long enough. He will always have some bad days (particularly anniversaries) where PTSD will rear its ugly head and make his day/week difficult. She thinks he's high functioning because he's found some coping skills, but those coping skills are going to take away from other areas in his life. Functioning on a mental disability is like running uphill every day. You might not make it to the top of the hill every day. Some days you might, but if someone had the ability to make that hill smaller for you, and you asked them to do something that came very simple for them that would make your day so much easier, it would be pretty cruddy of them not to and then throw it back on you saying you should just be able to make it to the top of the hill each day without their help.

I think it will take more to rebel against the list than do the thing .but then what would I know my hubby is a lazy wanker according to THE FEMINIST DRAGON .because I said he not great with housework .good in so many other ways .but because he refuses to iron and so on .he is berated .

here are his good points .1always been a good provider .
2 always been good with children .
3 always been supportive .
4 does the garden and diy .
bad points refuses to do housework .I am a sahm .

The stats are asking women if their men do housework!

Are there stats asking men if their women do housework too?

It's such a lazy arse generalisation to say all men are crap at housework blah blah and it's patently untrue.

Lots of women couldn't give a crap while their partners are ultra tidy and visa versa. Boring.

What I find shocking about this thread is the total ignoring and cruel jibes at the ops dh who has a mental health issue.

I thought we were better than that on mumsnet.

Op just support your dh in this, he needs it. 36 weeks pregnant is a doddle compared to PTSD.

Several people have said "why don't you talk to him, discuss it like grown-ups?" The OP has been back several times and has not addressed this point; she won't engage and just keeps banging on about the original gripe.
I'm seeing a pattern here ...

Except if things are in/ on their cars, the cleanliness of which they feel ownership. Or their desk at work, the cleanliness and orderliness of which they feel ownership. Or their tool-shed or work-shop, the cleanliness and organisation of which they feel ownership.

I agree with this for NT men and women. You take care of things you feel are yours.

The kitchen is my husband's he does the cooking and dishes. Everything is where he wants it. I have no say in how the cupboards are arranged and if I did I'd be expected to help clean. The laundry is mine. My husband has no say in how the dressers are organized or how the clothes are folded.

Do these NT men have a say about the general state and condition of the house? How many of these wives complaining about their DPs not helping have let him have a say in how the house is decorated? How the pantries are arranged? Aside from the chores, how has he contributed to the state of the house and how it's set up? My DH pitches in equally for the chores, but he also has equal say in how the house is set up (and some of his decoration choices make me cringe).

To be fair, do these women help clean their man's toolshed, car, or desk? More accurately would they even care if their man's tool shed was a mess? I wouldn't. It seems a bit double standard if they don't just automatically pitch in and organize his tools.

If my DH asked me to clean his kitchen I'd ask what exactly he wanted done so he didn't spend time after I was done redoing my work. Because god knows why things are where they are. To him it makes sense that some knives go on top of the microwave and some go in the drawer and some go in the knife block. But it's the way he likes it so I leave it alone. So when he asks for help, I ask with what specifically so I don't mess up his kitchen and usually it's just washing the dishes and leaving them in the strainer for him to take care of later.

Bloody hell, the people on here saying OP is annoyed because she is "hormonal"! Not because her husband is being annoying. Nope, let's make her annoyance her medical issue instead.

Wonder if these are the same people who trill "Time of the month, dear?" at upset women, too ...

"Several people have said "why don't you talk to him, discuss it like grown-ups?""

I thought it was clear that it had been discussed.
she had said: I need more help
He said: You need to write me a list
she came to the internet to find out: really? do I? Is that ok? is that the way to treat someone who is asking for an adult to pull his weight?

It isn't that they don't talk. It's that when they talk, he controls the outcome.

I absolutely cannot bear the assumed superiority that some people ascribe to conversation over written communication. It is their favourite way of communicating, because it works for them. What probably works for them is that it is illogical, easily twisted, and if you are good at it and have various forms of pressure on your side, it is a forum in which you can apply all sorts of cultural pressures to get what you want.

I work in a job where I have to say no to lots of people, with reasons, and I have to work in writing because they can't pretend I didn't say it, and they can't pretend I didn't say why. When they don't like it, they always ask for a meeting, and I groan, because I still have to say no, but the meeting is going to take up my time and be bloody hard work while they oil and plead and wriggle and ingratiate.

In my relationships I find it very hard to express my needs and very hard to say when I am being treated unfairly. I wish I had relationships in which it was normal and accepted to communicate in writing.

When I was at college I wrote letters and got letters all the time. I loved it.

the complacent, unexamined idiotic self-righteousness of "just talk!" is just as annoying as people who think kindness is not letting you be alone, and comfort is having the heating turned up 2 degrees too high. They mean well, but it's just a personal style, and not one that works for everyone.

allhail according to the op her dh has PTSD!! Getting fed up of repeating this.

He needs her help. He is asking for her help. She refuses to provide it.

How freaking sad is that.

FLYLADY writes my lists

I'm not greedy about sharing them with DH.

Less flippantly - I can see his point.

My arms can do wiping and hoovering - but my brain shorts out at the constant drip-drip-drip of household demands when my toddler keeps undoing my work . I was having days of mad activity - then burnout and end up with dishes piled up on the sink etc.

The FLYLADY defines the bar for 'good enough' - and takes no mental energy. She says clean sink at night - I clean the fucking sink - even if I stack dirty dishes next to it. she says 15 minute hot spot - I work for 15 minute - when the timer goes - I let it drop from my hands and walk away. She says find 25 things to bin - I count to 25 - even if it is 25 toffee wrappers under the sofa.

It sounds bonkers - but it really helps to keep a constant tick of activity without it being stressful. I can see your DHs point - that he doesn't know what 'enough' is - and since you've had to ask him once already - there's an implication that you are 'monitoring'.

I get that, thebody, I have referred to it in several of my posts

Frankly, who the fuck doesn't have MH issues. I do, and I am not off any of my hooks. I need help and I'm not going to get it. why does my position automatically imply that I don't get that he has issues? What gives you the impression that I have missed it, other than, in line with the OP, I am not sure that it is relevant, and actually, on a societal statistical basis, the probability of Man In Dodging Washing Up Shocker being all about a medical inability to do it, is really fucking low?

Jesus, can I just whine "I have an anxiety disorder! I have addiction issues! I have depression!" every time I want not to bother with something (or - even when I feel I genuinely can't cope with something) will it make any difference? (no. I will lose my job and my dp will be off with me till I am better.) Like I said, who the fuck doesn't have their cross to bear?

Statistically, btw, men do much less housework than women, even and especially when the woman works out of the house more.

I WOH and I do have one of those jobs where I turn up every day and there is no one to tell me what to do, to offer guidance. Whoever assumed that people go to work and get given little lists of tasks is laughably cosseted.

OK I don't know what mental disorder the OP's DH has but I know from the thread that the OP doesn't think it is relevant (though if it is she thinks therapy might help)

I also think: if he needs lists, in the moment, to focus the mind (and Oh lord, I get that) can't he write his own lists? I do. I panic like fuck and then I write a list and pick things off it, the easier the better to start. I don't go and wibble at my boss.

I also think if he was really well-meaning he could have said, at very least, "help me write a list". Not "issue me with pre-digested tasks.

Thebody I did read the thread.

That's what prompted the comment.

The OP isn't clear about whether she thinks PTSD is the main reason or even a major contributory factor in her DH not feeling ownership of the organisation and cleaning of his own home. It certainly doesn't follow that that's an automatic response. And all those other women who claim their men have selective blindness, don't mention their DH's PTSD.

I just want to point out that I was pointing not to surveys of what heterosexual women say about their partners but to surveys of the number of hours people put in. And comparing men to women. That's not a 'lazy arse generalisation'.

I'm on dodgy wifi so haven't read the whole thread.

DP is like the OP's DH, he is happy to do housework but needs it spelling out the him and needs it's requesting in a direct "can you please put the bins out" way.

An interesting experiment I did was to sit down DP and ask him to look around at the house and tell me what he thought needed tidying/cleaning/sorting.

He came back with the dishwasher needed unloading and the front room needed toys putting away...

He neglected the over flowing clean washing basket that needed folding and putting away, the hoovering needed doing, the kitchen sides needed clearing and cleaning and the floors needed sweeping. These were things I would so before bed do it doesn't build up.

He just doesn't get where the mess comes from and then how it goes away again! It's infuriating, he's an intelligent man with a lead managerial role, he's in charge of any people yet he doesn't clock when the washing needs doing!

Oh it can work both ways though. A friend of mine (main breadwinner) once commented to us how lucky she was that her house never seemed to get dusty. It was several minutes before her dh (SAHD) managed to get his jaw off the floor find his voice and point out there was a reason for that.