To not want to write a list of chores for dh to do (to want him to just do more and show initiative)

[Frecklefeet]

I am 36 weeks pregnant and for the last few weeks I have asked dh to do more around the house. He is not too bad at doing housework but he tends to leave most to me, which I don't usually mind too much but now I'm feeling more tired and I want him to do more now and keep doing more when the baby comes.

He keeps asking me to write a list and organise the week and the days in regards to what needs doing, which I don't want to do, I just want him to do more and use initiative.

I had a look online for some articles (to email to him to prove I'm right) and they all seemed to support his request - that the woman should write a list of chores for the man etc and I think his is wrong. I am not fussy about how things are done, I just want to live in basic tidy and clean condition and don't want to be snowed under tonnes of washing etc so I want the chores kept on top of.

Fwiw both of us only work part time. He looks after ds some days, although he does work more than me so I do more childcare. Ds does go to nursery part time also. I will probably take 6 months maternity leave and then go back fewer hours than I do at the moment, dh will look after the baby until my hours increase and then the baby will go to nursery also.

So aibu? Should I have to write a list of chores? This feels like a huge chore in itself

I am a case I know about who does not consider illness to mean I have carte blanche to do what I like with other people's time.

I totally agree, neither do I. But equally I dont think that asking for specific help in a specific way to make life happier place for all involved is that outragreous either. He needs a list, it may be because of his PTSD, it may be not, but I would just write the list on the basis that it is the path of least resistance for everyone as a very trying time. Give it six month when late pg/newborn stages are over and then deal with the possible "womens work" issue. I just dont think that now is a good time in the Op or her DHs lives to deal with it.

arrghhh typos....figure it out yourselves :o

I know a fair few people who have been diagnosed with PTSD. Really quite a lot of them. It can be debilitating, but a majority of sufferers manage to hold down jobs and take care of themselves just fine. Without having to have lists made out for them. I had a major depressive episode a few years ago, my house ended up looking like a tip, because I used all my available energy getting out of bed and getting the boys to and from school. I eventually started doing Flylady. I asked for lists, but was told I was an adult and to do them myself, so I did.

Secondly... wtf is all this rubbish about the OPs DH helping out? Is he a visitor to his home? Does he not contribute to the mess? Men taking an active part in the running of their homes is not them helping out, it is them doing their fair share. I am endlessly shocked by the number of women who still think that their DH putting some shelves up and mowing the grass is equivalent to the amount of work keeping a house clean takes.

Thirdly.... PTSD might have only been described as PTSD since the 70's, however, it was known under other names before that and treated as a specific disorder since WW1. There is a lot of evidence that it was known about since the Crusades. It's hardly a new thing. I have never met anyone who belittles it, either in rl or on this thread. I do, however, understand how difficult it is to see that clearly when you are the main carer for someone in so much pain.

allhailqueenmab I totally and utterly agree with your posts. And I say that as a sahm. DH pulls his weight when he is around, without the need of a list. It's really not that hard, as long as the male doesn't, deep down, see it as women's work.

OP Yanbu, and don't let anyone tell you that you are. You do not have to be "household manager". He lives there too. Asking for Lists! pffftttt.

Well it seems we all find each other's posts ridiculous.

I personally find it ridiculous to scrabble around for unlikely reasons as to why grown-ass men can't be arsed to clean their own houses because they live with women.

It's so convenient isn't it, that PTSD stops men taking ownership of their household tasks but doesn't impede them taking ownership of their workplace tasks?

Funny that.

Because maybe they have structure in their work based tasks?

Why do these things on MN always seems to turn into 'he isn't doing so because he is male and sexist'.

I think I sometimes live on a parallel universe to MN

"Why do these things on MN always seems to turn into 'he isn't doing so because he is male and sexist'."

Er, because that's usually the simple reason this happens.

With very few exceptions, it's nothing to do with PTSD, depression, men not seeing dirt, etc. It's usually quite simply that he's sexist and doesn't realise it.

Also I would question the idea that his work tasks are more structured. We don't know what his job is, but most jobs have a balance between tasks which have to be done today, by next week, by xyz deadline and interruptions which have to be dealt with in the next five minutes/ half an hour/ couple of hours which were not scheduled for, but which have arisen and are urgent. Unless you are a director or are in some kind of work purdah due to financial year end/ working on a pitch/ tender etc., there are very few jobs where you get no unexpected tasks in a day at all which have to be fitted into the working day in between the scheduled tasks.

Just like housework. It's transferable skills which many men refuse to transfer because they don't bloody want to and women make excuses for them because we don't want to recognise what they're doing.

How do you know it has nothing to do with PTSD or depression? No one does. Both are extremely disabling illnesses for which people develop coping strategies.

I am in a situation at the moment where I genuinely don't see things because of medication and pain. My DP writes lists to help me. If our roles were reversed would he be being sexist just because he was unable to see these things?

Anyway the OP and her DH have now come to a compromise.

Because maybe they have structure in their work based tasks?

Gosh, you really must think most men are total simpletons, if you don't even think them capable of a few household tasks. And only able to cope at work because they have someone hovering over their shoulder, telling them what to do...

And they say feminists are the man-haters...?! Honestly, give men some credit. It's housework; not actual rocket science...

Actually no I don't think men are simpletons at all. In this instance the OPs DH suffers from PTSD which may be clouding his mind.

And if you suffer from sever depression or PTSD then yes a few household tasks can be beyond you.

I think the thing is, for OP, she is feeling the burden of supporting her DH through his condition. It can be a burden to have to be the strong one, especially if you are feeling the symptoms of pregnancy.

It is understandable that her husband may need help breaking big open tasks down into smaller more defined ones - so wants a list. It is understandable that the OP just wants to be able to rest. This is human frailty.

However the list itself is fairly simple (I wrote one out upthread that could be given to him straight or amended). So the list is already there, if not mine, websites like Fly Lady have them.

Tbh if I were the Op, I would try and forget about the unfairness of feeling she cannot have a break and pick up a list from somewhere, fire (in her email) and forget. Job done.

"How do you know it has nothing to do with PTSD or depression? No one does. Both are extremely disabling illnesses for which people develop coping strategies."

I've already acknowledged that.

But you specifically asked why threads like this often turn into "it's because men are sexist" and I've tried to answer your question as best I can. You're right, we don't know whether it's PTSD that is causing this particular man's lack of ownership for keeping his own home ordered and clean, but I'm pointing out that most men don't have PTSD and so that cannot be the reason many of these threads turn into "it's because men are sexist".

Women are always looking for new ways to excuse men's sexism. PTSD is a great one. The drawbacks are that it only works a) when men actually have PTSD and b) when that PTSD is leading those men to neglect their fair share of household chores.

If more men did their fair share of housework as a norm, then it would be a bit more obvious which men genuinely can't do housework because of their PTSD and which ones are using PTSD (or depression, or other) as the latest excuse for their lazy-arsed sexism.

Your comment refers to men in general, though; not the OP's DH.

Just read all the thread and what struck me most wasn't the housework/feminism debate but that your house doesn't sound that dirty. You both seem on top of the big chores.

The things bothering you the most seem to be more about tidying (toys) and stuff you do in an instant (wipe jam off the table, sweep up crumbs).

These are more subjective and easy to overlook or to be assigned different levels of importance by different people. (Of whatever sex)

In this case (given you're knackered and he's a bit vulnerable) I think you both need to discuss and agree 'action triggers' and compromise.

Eg in our house the kitchen surfaces and table are cleared and wiped after every meal - but I pile the dishes up above the dishwasher through the day. I empty the clean stuff out when I'm cooking the evening meal and it goes on after we've eaten. DH hates the dishes out but knows they'll be away by 7pm.

The other thing that really helps is to make sure everything has a place. That way the toys come out and go EVERYWHERE during the day but can be put out of sight at the end of the day really quickly. Again DH feels very twitchy seeing the mess but not overwhelmed because he knows it's temporary.

I'm a great believer in feng shui and if your house feels topsy turvy then you can't relax. So I am suggesting you write a list together of what the 'finished product' would look like rather than tasks iyswim.

Finally - buy an electric cordless lightweight sweeper. Totally brilliant for flashing round the floor and getting crumbs up. Won't replace a proper vacuum/mop but keeps things clean enough in between. No more sweeping and having to eye up piles of dust.

Write a list with 1 item on it:

To do-
Write a list of what needs done & carry out tasks

Well this morning I woke to all floors swept and mopped, toys tidied and sorted as well (they have been in a big jumble for a few weeks). The kitchen tidied and sorted away as well (surfaces have been cluttering up). He is a night owl so he is up late at night. So I'm happier :)

I think dh has a tendency to be lazy but it's not stubborn laziness as he is generally a fair person. I just didn't want to take on the household manager role, that is someone I don't want to be.

I do think his ptsd may have a role to play. And it certainly does affect his work a lot! But he has been constantly working on this!

You mean that you two communicated and problems got resolved?

Who knew.

And he did it without you writing a list too! Glad things are working out, OP.

I'll put things the other way around then.

My DH is a practical man, he sees what needs doing in terms of maintenance, repairs and upgrades.

I know what needs repairing but I can't get my head around the maintenance schussed and upgrades as they simply don't figure on my radar.

I'd be happy for my DH to put it down in black and white for me.

Likewise, cleaning and chores don't really feature on his radar, he likes a list because he knows it pisses me off. But then that's like the fact he know tech specs inside out but can't remember dates and anniversaries! Doesn't feature on his radar.

I could take it personally, he could take it personally. We could both crap on about how important things are and how useless the other person is. Instead we love and respect each other and therefore make allowances for differences.

The "crutches / shoulder" metaphor has been bugging me. It's not right. It's more like:

"my partner has difficulty walking (it is not clear how much). He often leans on my shoulder when we go anywhere. This started when I was fit and strong but now I am heavily pregnant it is starting to be an extra weight I could do without. I want him to get medical help and either sort his walking out, or maybe accommodate it with crutches. he is resisting this and thinks that I will always be available to be leaned on and accept responsibility for his mobility. Do you think this is fair?"

Joysmum, what's the point of your post, other than to somehow make out that you're better than the OP, and that you and your DH have it all figured out?

Being the household manager might not annoy you, and that's fine. But it's actually OK if it does annoy other people. It doesn't make them somehow deficient to not want to just, default, take on that load. Especially when they're heavily pregnant.

It's OK that this pisses the OP off. She's not being unreasonable to be annoyed by this, nor to try to navigate a way through it.

I am glad the OP has now resolved her problem ...

But I just wanted to pick up on a point that has been made through the thread about DHs doing DIY/maintenance/gardens and DWs responsible for housework and household management. Unless you live at Chatham or are in the middle of building your own home in no way is that an equal share of labour. Gardens don't need doing after every meal, you don't need to put up pictures everyday in the same way as you need to load, unload, dry and put away washing. Serious maintenance problems like broken boilers happen rarely and usually are outsourced anyway. Why is putting out the bins a traditional "man's" job? Is it possibly because it takes about 30 seconds once a week?

Just because someone mows the lawn once a month in summer shouldn't mean he is exempt from the daily grind of making sure clean clothes are available, meals are bought, prepared and cooked, bills are paid, floors are mopped and hoovered etc.

Of course these are the public "prestige" jobs as well - having a shiny car or a nice garden that can be taken credit for. No-one gets praised for spending a day lugging washing from machine to drier to ironing board to cupboards.