to think there could be as many neglected children in childcare as there are elderly people in care homes?

[choplouey]

I have three preschool children and a 7 and 9 yr old. I've worked in nurseries on and off since leaving university and obviously have been to a wealth of parks, soft play areas, toddler groups, childrens centres and so on in my nine years as a parent.

Before I get slated - this is not an attack on working mums or childcarers. I recognise that there are many people who want/have to work and many fantastic childcarers. However...

While working in nurseries (I've worked in 12) I've seen children plonked down as soon as their parent leaves and left crying, fussed over for 5 mins so they're happy before they return, an untrue record kept of food and nappies for non-verbal children, children told to shut up, upset children ignored in corners for great lengths of time and so on.

Last week I went to soft play and there was a childminder there. She sat on her phone for the entire time, despite two of her mindees hitting/being hit/crying. Today I went to toddler group and a childminder was working with her sister. One child was around 18 months and wailed the entire time. One kept asking 'what's wrong with you?' every ten mins, the other just plonked her down with toys and told her to stop being stupid.

Another mindee was dropped off by her mum and the childminder was all over her tickling and chasing her while mum was there. Literally the minute she left the childminder sat down, the little girl started crying and the childminder ignored her. Her sister rolled her eyes and said to her 'it's no wonder your mum's don't want you if you're both such miserable little cows!' and they laughed

The children this morning looked so hopeless and helpless and I left feeling furious that the childminder will tell their parents what a lovely day they've had and so sick at the thought of how crap she treats them at home if it's that poorly in public.

Aibu to feel this way and sad for how many parents are given misinformation?

That's great then. I was just making the point that generally it's harder to be tuned into how someone else is feeling when you don't live with them and see them every day.

The general point I am making (with which you seem to agree) is that it's the family who love and care who are best tuned into another persons feelings. Particularly so when it's the parent/ child bond and you are the primary carers of the child. Which is why I trust parents to know their own children best. Not random people on the Internet.

I use a childminder. She's a professional who happens to work in a home environment.

And sorry if this sounds harsh but if you want to be considered and paid as a professional then damn well act like one.

If I didn't mind a baby sitter who would be running around doing her own thing spring cleaning and using stay and play groups as childcare then that's what I would pay for.

wordfactory

my DC attended nursery when we lived (briefly) in the US. There was no CCTV (this was 12 years ago) but the parents were very open about keeping tabs on the staff and facilities.
Parents dropped off and collected throughout the day and would tell other parents when they had done a spot check. From what I oculd see, this was common place.
Their expectations from the setting were very high (it cost a fortune), but they also expected to play their part IYSWIM.

This is really interesting, I would certainly imagine a more open chatty culture in US although we do not know standards there....

Here we sort of creep around, wondering whether to say anything....fear of upsetting people a sort of faux politeness almost...scared to call police...

If it was expected and in grained to openly discuss care with other parents, check up and so on, that would be so much better.

I wonder if the parents at nurseries or CM all have each others emails...like we do at school...that would be good and encourage open talk...

Both elderly parents and children may be very in tune but it doesn't stop both parties being very vulnerable sections of society with specific needs requiring well trained staff ,quality settings and yes vigilant family members.

Round here childminders often become very friendly with their families and often extend the partnership outside work.They also work very closely with schools and pre- schools and are well known to them.Maybe this is easier to have with a childminder.

Yes, I agree, children, the elderly and those with disabilities are vulnerable members of society, and therefore extra vigilance needs to be taken when using any form of care.

I don't think anyone would disagree with that. We would just prefer it if people were up for intelligent debate on the subject, starting from the basis that the majority of parents are loving and caring, and know their own children better than anyone else.

• We would just prefer it if people were up for intelligent debate on the subject ( oh the irony).

There is no debate Janey, do you understand.

Some nurseries and CM are shite, FACT, its easy to hide, the debate is how to uncover it, how to deal with it, how to expose it.

Not by creeping around playgroups playing spot the childminder and then bitching on mumsnet about how they nattered over a cup of tea rather than interacting with their mindees, that's for sure!

Born in my experience, the parents who used the nursery were much like the parents in the playground at school. We'd stop for a very brief chat, we had each others mobile numbers, we were Facebook friends. There does seem to be a general feeling that nurseries are somehow different to pre-schools or schools in that respect, but largely they aren't. There are still a lot of parental friendships made by meeting at the nursery gates.

janey, I wouldn't presume to know anyones child better than their parents, but just because workers like myself who have worked in childcare for years and have seen a lot of uncaring, uninterested childcare workers who treat it like a job, as thats all it is, when we come here and tell our stories we are almost vilified for telling it like it is.

anyone paying through the nose for childcare wont like it but we cant deny what we've seen, I'd go so far as to guess about 80% of ex childcare workers would never use childcare themselves, wonder if there is an exact figure somewhere...

oh janey if you just think we come on here to have a bitch about a nasty childminder that wasnt giving little jonny enough attention then you're so wide of the mark its untrue.

You keep speaking ssd.

People choose to block their ears and eyes at all sorts of things.
Though I would say fair enough not to take an internet stranger at their word.
But if there are a lot of them, if I was interested with children of that age, I sure would sit up and take notice, and absorb tips.

People also often shoot the messenger. Which is a behaviour I have have never understood.

I do also think that mumsnet has some posters who like to play devil's advocate

I have already said I don't have any problem with people relating their own personal experiences; it's when people make sweeping generalisations based on their own experience. I don't doubt there are some rubbish child carers around, just as there are some rubbish parents. As for the money side of it- I wouldn't leave my children with crap carers even if it was free, so I certainly wouldn't pay to do so.

A good friend of mine works at a nursery. She had no hesitation about using the nursery for her own dc. It's a great nursery. She did say that she was aware of some very poor nurseries, but she also said that it was very easy to tell the difference.

We had a nanny when dd was little, though we did use a nursery for some sessions so that dd had contact with other kids. We still have a fantastic relationship with the nanny more than 5 years since we moved away from the area - if she had been as disinterested in my child as some posters would have me believe, I can't see why she and her family would do a 400 mile round trip to see us twice a year!

As for the nursery, dd's former key worker went off to become a travel agent instead, but she seemed quite happy to entrust the care of her little girl to her former colleagues at the nursery.

Clearly some childcare isn't up to scratch, but it's absurd to suggest that all childcare is therefore inadequate. Our experience was extremely positive. And as a parent, you know if your child is happy and thriving or not.

I agree- and to me, nursery staff who want their own children to attend are one sign of excellent provision. As for nurseries where the staff wouldnt send their own children... Well, makes you wonder why they're in the job.

Well, makes you wonder why they're in the job

Because they weren't aware when they signed up that nurseries could be so bad, because what they saw happened gradually over time, because then they didn't know who to report too, because they were trapped in a job with issues but they they were scared of loosing said job because people dont take kindly to whistle blowers ( see example of posters on thread) because they have bills to pay and a roof to keep over their head.

permanently and janey you both sound like very deeply caring mothers, who really made extensive enquires and searches before settling on your childcare which sounds great.

So....I am not sure what you are doing on this thread, i am not sure how many times its relevant to say how great your child care was, its not the point of the thread.

As for whislte blowers they lay their lives on the line to expose bad practise. They are heroes and anyone who is scared to speak out who comes on a thread should be gently encouraged too...or report what they have seen somewhere, that wil lead to positive things coming of it.

So....I am not sure what your motives are here as its all totally irrelevant, unless your nursery owners/manager.

it's when people make sweeping generalisations based on their own experience

Thats what your doing.

I just think some of us would find it impossible to stay in a job where we felt so clearly uncomfortable with what was going on. And I'm not dismissing what you are saying about the logistical difficulties of changing jobs, whistle blowing etc, but at the end of the day, nursery work is among the lowest paid work ( wish it wasnt, but sadly it is) so it's hardly the case that people are stuck there because no other job would pay the rent.

I would say similar about certain other jobs... If a teacher felt so strongly that they would not want to send a child to the school they work in because of bad practice, then I would wonder why they are in that job- though I can see that it's harder to leave a higher paid professional role.

Also, I'm not talking about someone who has a range of experience in different settings, lands a job in a substandard one and realises quickly what's going on. There have been posts on here from people who almost seem to take pride in having worked in dozens of rubbish nurseries for decades ... I can see that they probably don't want to hear what we're saying, but most caring parents (whether they use nursery or not) are appalled by that.

And actually it does all come back to whether you accept that parents know their children best.

If on some level one believes that they honestly know the ins and outs of someone else's child better than the parents, then naturally you'll always believe you're right and they're wrong

Lower paid stable jobs are not two a penny anymore, as far as I am aware. Especially in certain areas.
And they may consider that the job they are in is better than others that they can do.

And all too often, they are young. And may not have appropriate people who they can talk things over with.

janey. I presume you are older and live in a naice area?

Yes, I'm aware it's perhaps the best job they think they can get. It doesn't change my view (and that of many others on here) that this is sort of person is categorically not the sort of person I would want looking after my child. Nurseries are not all staffed by low qualified, young, uninterested workers, just as not all childminders dump the kids at soft play and sit and natter to their mates.
Us parents are pretty savvy you know... If we want a particular set up, you look for it, whether its more mature staff, lots of outdoor play, child led ethos... And while childcare is a low waged job for the employee, it's a big outlay for parents. Many of us spent our entire income on childcare during the pre school years so for the financial reason alone we aren't going to put up with crap. And to my mind there are many more important considerations than the financial side anyway- starting with my children's well being

X posts there. Not sure what you mean by older?!! Older than whom?
Fwiw I'm in my 40s and my children are teenagers now, so no more nursery angst for me! Lived in a very ordinary village and then a large town. Nothing special.

Not sure what you mean by parents know their kids best.

Re looking for the ideal nursery.Not all parents are that knowledgable ,many won't even want child led ethos or mature staff etc.My dp would know diddly squat re what to look for in a nursery.

The sad fact also remains that there isn't enough good quality nursery provision which is why the gov isn't going to reach it's targets re provision for disadvantaged kids.

I guess what I mean is along the lines of what you said upthread, about your dp knowing his mother's feelings, moods, emotional well being, when she was in a care home. As a parent, you are tuned into your child and make the best decisions for them.