to think there could be as many neglected children in childcare as there are elderly people in care homes?

[choplouey]

I have three preschool children and a 7 and 9 yr old. I've worked in nurseries on and off since leaving university and obviously have been to a wealth of parks, soft play areas, toddler groups, childrens centres and so on in my nine years as a parent.

Before I get slated - this is not an attack on working mums or childcarers. I recognise that there are many people who want/have to work and many fantastic childcarers. However...

While working in nurseries (I've worked in 12) I've seen children plonked down as soon as their parent leaves and left crying, fussed over for 5 mins so they're happy before they return, an untrue record kept of food and nappies for non-verbal children, children told to shut up, upset children ignored in corners for great lengths of time and so on.

Last week I went to soft play and there was a childminder there. She sat on her phone for the entire time, despite two of her mindees hitting/being hit/crying. Today I went to toddler group and a childminder was working with her sister. One child was around 18 months and wailed the entire time. One kept asking 'what's wrong with you?' every ten mins, the other just plonked her down with toys and told her to stop being stupid.

Another mindee was dropped off by her mum and the childminder was all over her tickling and chasing her while mum was there. Literally the minute she left the childminder sat down, the little girl started crying and the childminder ignored her. Her sister rolled her eyes and said to her 'it's no wonder your mum's don't want you if you're both such miserable little cows!' and they laughed

The children this morning looked so hopeless and helpless and I left feeling furious that the childminder will tell their parents what a lovely day they've had and so sick at the thought of how crap she treats them at home if it's that poorly in public.

Aibu to feel this way and sad for how many parents are given misinformation?

3rd paragraph. How do you know it doesnt prevent more abuse?
I would bet you any money that it does.

'In house' CCTV doesn't help nuch. The Basingstoke nursery where a member of staff was sacked and arrested for assault recently has CCTV. It helped afterwards but didn't stop anything. All the low level CBA childcare goes on with CCTV. The penny pinching and stupid management goes on with CCTV.
Live CCTV feed to parents would be awful. Things will get misinterpreted, all children will be on show at all times-what about their privacy? Creepy dads watching the young staff more than their children. Would you attract good staff to work in that environment? (No).

The people complaining that people in the childcare business shouldn't be moaning on the internet to other members of the public and that they should be reporting it to the authorities to make the industry better, are missing a key point. The TV programme on elderly care took their 'moans' to the public and showed them that dreadful care is happening is probably going to force a change in the law to make it harder for abuse to go on. Hopefully us childcare professionals talking about poor(But possibly not illegal) care standards will lead to improvements in our sector.

We are reporting low level poor standards, to YOU and to MUMSNET. Now what are YOU going to do?

tiggy

The people complaining that people in the childcare business shouldn't be moaning on the internet to other members of the public and that they should be reporting it to the authorities to make the industry better, are missing a key point

Your missing the point, they dont actually give a shit, if they did they wouldn't react like they do, its only two or three posters who see red, at any criticism of child care, they hate people disclosing information about it and they try and shut them down.

I think they should be ignored on threads like this.

It would be really interesting if MN could encourage a sort of tell all, thread on child care where people, could come on and tell all without fear of viscous redress....then send the thread to whoever looks at nurseries and the MP who covers child care.

Absolutely BornFree

Start a thread?
But so so so not in AIBU.
Even if not, there will be some posters who try to throw all sorts of accusations like "why didnt you report sooner", "why didnt you follow up on it?" and derailment generally.

Threads like this annoy me. Bad childcare undoubtedly exists. But as a full time worker relying on a nursery what am I supposed to do with this? I have turned up to our nursery at all hours and the children are always being well taken care of.

When on mat leave with dd2 I went to a couple of toddler groups and I couldn't tell who were child minders and who were parents.

I have no problem with poor/bad standards or practice being exposed. Indeed, they absolutely should be. As such, there is nothing inherently wrong with the OP in this case. What is very unhelpful is people then coming on to the thread and making sweeping statements about all childcare being substandard. What is needed is more targetted and fewer inflammatory statements. How about some sensible suggestions as to how those who do use nurseries and childminders might go about finding out what might really be happening? Or at the very least, a calm and open discussion about the possible issues. "I'd never send my child to a nursery because of the things I saw when I worked in one" isn't helpful. It doesn't contribute to a solution.

My children did go to a nursery. I was very happy with what I saw and my children seemed very happy whilst they were there. Of course, I can never know whether they were neglected or not. What I can say with absolute authority though, is that if they were, they do not remember and it has had no lasting effect. In which case, was it really so bad after all?

kins she chose her because she had a big garden anda dog to play with. Then when she minded dd she shut the dog out and dd in I refused to pay my outstanding invoice based on what dd said. She didn't follow it up which says to me that she very much knew she was in the wrong.

The saddest thing I've seen is when I went to look around a nursery with one of my dc as they'd just received their free funding and we'd recently moved, so I thought I'd see what was on offer. I recognised dhs colleagues baby there (around a year) and was told he was upset as it was his first day. His key worker was alternating between shoving a dummy and a bottle in his mouth, then rolling her eyes as he continued to scream hysterically.

Dh went to look around separately a few weeks later as he'd been away with work and saw the same child, similarly hysterical, but this time curled up in the corner. He was told he was upset as it was his first day and mum had advised he'd react better to being given some space.

That week I bumped into that colleague and asked how her ds was. She said he'd settled into nursery fantastically since starting four months ago. So muchso, that he was aalways 'napping contentedly' when she arrived to collect him mid-afternoon and 'cried hysterically' when she woke him as he loved it there so much More like he'd crashed out after a morning of crying, I thought, hence waking up souupset. I told her what I'd seen and she said they'd told her he'd never cried for longer than two minutes after she left

Permanently just because they don't remember something doesn't make it ok, nor can you accurately say it hasn't had a lasting effect. My exH was physicallyaand emotionally abusive when my eldest was a toddler. I thought she'd never noticed until four years later she woke in tears about him hurting me.

I have seen both. :(

3 nursemaids "only got 3 years in prison after hitting, blocking noses, holding children upside down over water cans...for eating too slowly (In Vietnam)

I haven't seen a care home here as they don't really exist yet. Family still look after elderly relatives. There are centers for adults who moved from orphanaged, most with severe disabilities, agent orange. From what I hear, they just lie in bed waiting to die. :(

I lived in a care home/student dorm in Italy... It was how the elderly were treated that upset me...

I have sadly seen similar in a lot of nurseries I have temped in -I no longer temp but did for years - I had a 40 hour job over 4 days and on the 5th day would temp in whatever nursery needed someone so would see a wide range of places and age rooms. Nothing awful in a safety way but more kids just ignored, staff chatting and only doing basics and yes lies in the book write ups.

Have reported some to care commission (Scotland) at the time for more serious issues of lack of interaction.

I have also as a patient in hospital with respiratory problems seen some elderly people spoken to like utter crap - i complained then too.

It makes me so so sad and angry.

Oh and agree not being able to verbally state what happened doesnt mean then don't remember.

Hence why children who were adopted at a young age in to loving families still have issues as they still have some memory of the situation - but if it happens when they are preverbal then they wont have the words for it.

You don't need to have a conscious memory of something for it to have an impact.

I think what some people forget though is that simple fact that parents know their own children best. Parents are tuned into how their children feel, and you know whether your child is secure and happy.

I'm sure we're all in agreement that supporting consistently high standards for all forms of care is highly important. Just as we'd want all children to have happy and stimulating home lives. However, it's interesting that threads like this are never started as a serious debate. They usually arise when someone wants to spout about the dozens of crap nurseries they've worked in, and the bad practice they've been part of. And of course then we have those who set themselves up as some sort of unofficial monitoring body for local childcare... Hanging out at playgroups spotting the childminders and timing how long they're interacting with their mindees...(heaven knows what their own children are doing while they're busy with their notebooks!) As for dripp

Posted too soon.
As for dropping into nurseries, checking up on colleagues children and then believing that you know what's going on better than the child's parents... Astonishing.

What this thread shows is that yes, there is always room for intelligent debate, but that there is a rather unpleasant minority who aren't actually interested in that.. They just seem to get some weird kick out of deciding they don't want or need childcare themselves, so they make it their mission to convince themselves that everyone In their locality who uses it must have very unhappy children. All very odd.

janey68, I usually agree with your posts on MN but I really, *really dont here

I posted further up that I'd seen loads of low level neglect in nurseries, I've also seen it from childminders, I worked as that too

It doesnt give me a kick saying this, it doesnt make me feel sanctimoniuos and better than anyone else.

Because of my years of experience working in childcare I'd never ever put my kids in nursery or with a childminder, only because of my experiences....nothing downright dangerous, just kids being ignored on too many levels

I' d have loved to have gone back to work and know my children were well cared for, and for that I dont mean being the centre of attention all day and played with continuously like a little king, I just mean being looked after properly, not ignored and left alone as there is always another report to write or a gossip with a collegue to be had or harried into sleeping, arts and crafts when it suits the nursery, I dont know I just wanted someone to give them a cuddle when they need one, read the same book over and over cos they love it, play in puddles when it rains even though its as boring as hell!!

basically just be like a mum to them, not for them to be "work" to someone else

theres a huge difference and it makes me sad to see it and discuss it here, it doesnt make me feel better than someone who uses a nursery, please dont turn this thread into a Us V You situation, thats what its feeling like

I dont know how to make nurseries and some childminders more caring, but thats all I wanted for my kids and to me its whats missing in childcare, a lot.

I've had to name change for this.
I have worked in a nursery rated 'good.'
There was a lot of variation in how children were treated, the older children had better care.
The baby room was really not good though. The staff chatted most of the day, derided weeping toddlers, especially one who cried most of every day. Apparently he had done this for months. When I tried to comfort him I was told to leave him as he had to get used to nursery.
One staff member was awful, rude, rough, left children sitting in poo for hours, ate off their spoons when she had cold sores, and I complained about her repeatedly.
She called this bullying.
The management told me that as I was in the room with her, and they were not, I should train her. At the time I wasn't qualified myself, only working toward my NVQ.
I couldn't train her as she simply lied and argued continually saying
NO I NEVER! I never done that! no I never! For hours. Until I was completely worn down.
I used to say that I would love to have CCTV there.

I left in the end as I just didn't know what to do. I know who to report to now, but I didn't then.

apologies for awful grammar as above , written in a rush..

and I know there are loads of childcare workers who are very caring out there, I've seem it in nurseries but its like one or two in the whole nursery most times and that's crap for a kid in there all day if you don't come into contact with the good childcarers very much.

choplouey. Not quite sure what to say. You have certainly seen stuff that the general public often doesnt see.

I know a bit about childcare, but not nursuries.
To you and others. Do nursuries allow drop in visits during the day?

TODAYS PAPER [SAD]

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2628450/Nagging-doubts-A-hidden-camera-Then-horrifying-moment-I-saw-NANNY-attacking-MY-BABY.html

whats interesting is the TWO FACES,

That link is awful. The worst the about it is that nothing came of prosecuting her.

Kinsorange - yes you should always be able to drop in to a nursery during the day and I wouldn't go near one that doesn't let you.

kins drop in as a parent who has a child there or as a prospective customer? Most nurseries in the first situation would say dropping in could be disruptive and unsettle the child. Usually in the latter scenario you're asked to avoid certain times (I.e. Lunch and naps) therefore restricting the times they know to expect you. Once you arrive you're usually delayed by signing in, being given brochures etc so there's always plenty of time for word to get round that there's a parent on the premises.

ssdd
Thats exactly the care myself and all the cms I know give.
Lots of cuddles, jack and the flum flum tree 10 times a day and a home from home.
It does exist but a lot more in cms than nurseries as nurseries can never be a home fromhome

Perhaps all nurseries should be forced to operate from the type of buildings the one I used did. Former mobile classrooms with wall to wall windows through which anyone working within the primary school next door, or walking towards the nursery reception could not only see, but also hear, what was going on. My nieces and nephews regularly reported back on what they'd seen my two doing through the window at nursery. One of the reasons we chose the nursery we did was because it was so very very public.

I don't think poor childcare should be a taboo subject in case it upsets working parents.

A friend in the US has a child in a nursery with CCTV, so that parents can log in at any time to see what is going on. The grandparents who are in the UK can log in to watch too. Seems like a great idea to me.