to go to church to get DS into a better school

[ilovejesus]

We live in the centre of a big city, near some badly rated schools. The faith schools are, of course, much better.

I am an atheist and so is DH. We both think the current system is appalling, but I am prepared to start going to church in order to get DS into a better school when the time comes (he's 2). DH is strongly against this, saying it's unethical. I think the whole bloody system is unethical, but until the system is changed, I don't want to ruin DD's future over it. He's also morally against sending her private (not that we could afford it), and I am too.

So as not to drip feed, my problem with the schools is not the teaching which I'm sure is fine, it's the low expectations set for these children. Basically the children at the closest school are expected to become checkout workers and security guards. There's nothing wrong with that but I want more for DD. We both went to good unis and have professional jobs.

AIBU to go to church with my fingers crossed, and if not, how do I convince DH?

Godwin's rule means this thread is probably on its way out

sassy or whoever it was mentioning grammar schools I object to academic selection because in its current form it disadvantages many and reinforces existing advantage.

Why should kids who are good at passing exams (which is after all just one measure of potential) get a better education than those who aren't?

What are you going to tell the kids?

I'd tell them that we had to go to church because that's what we have to do to make sure they go to the nicest school.

Then when they got to the school, I'd do what I already did when my dc went to a CofE school and tell them that it's up to them whether they believe in God or not, and as long as they were quiet during prayers then whatever they choose to believe is fine. Then as they went through tje or education, we'd talk about the different bible stories that they heard and talk about them individually.

As I said earlier in the thread, going to a CofE school has left my children identifying as atheists. If I'd had the choice I'd have sent them to a secular school, but out of the four schools local to us, three of them were CofE, the other was catholic. Doing hymns and prayers was just something they did at school, it hadn't done them any harm, and it never did me any harm either.

MaryMillington, children at grammar schools don't get a better education than they would get at a good comprehensive. They get a different education, not better.

Woo woo owl, that is the theory. In practice today, unfortunately, in many areas, those who do not get a place at grammar school get a far, far less good education.

'MaryMillington, children at grammar schools don't get a better education than they would get at a good comprehensive. They get a different education, not better'

where have you got that information from WooWoo, because statistically they will do better academically, in a grammar school, than a comp?

I get it from personal experience, which I know is only anecdotal.

But when there's academic selection, it's fairly obvious that people selected in that way will do better academically. But academics aren't the be all and end all, people can be successful in life and have good outcomes without being academic.

Sassy. You would need to compare progress from the point of entry to leaving to be able to judge the performance not just the final result when one group by it's very nature are going to be more academically able.

There are areas I know where most or all of the non-grammar schools are in special measures, or only just scraping a "needs improvement". I don't set much store by Ofsted, but still. And others where the combination of faith schools, selective schools and fee-paying schools leaves the few state comps under-subscribed, under-resourced and failing the pupils they have.

Children who have been tutored prior to the 11+ are more likely to have parents who pay for tutoring prior to GCSE and A Level to boost their results. Grammars also are going to have a higher proportion of motivated parents and children who knuckle down to revision. Very difficult to compare value added fairly.

You know that some faith schools require infant baptism as evidence of faith, now?

I don't actually think what you're planning is particularly unethical. There's not actually anything wrong with going to church if you don't believe (can't receive communion unless you are actually Christian though).

But I also bet you will not manage it - you will crack. I can just about drag myself to church every Sunday because I am Christian and I know I'm supposed to. I wouldn't get out of bed that early on a Sunday for any other bugger. Going to church when you don't believe any of it makes you want to hit yourself in the face (I used to be an atheist/agnostic so I know).

Speedwell I think one of the things parents hope for when they try and get their children into a "naice" school is less conflict trying to get their children to do those sorts of thing if all their classmates' parents are also insisting on homework and tutors.

I used to go to a Christian toddler group that welcomed everyone(I'm non-Christian and was open about it). I got talking to one of the vicars there and he had a vicar mate who was always seeing parents doing what you're planning. The interesting thing is that he was happy to see it because at least more people were coming and hearing his message.

Like many, I don't get why morals stop you fee paying but you are happy to embark on what some see as a highly morally dubious strategy?

Real question are you ok and prepared if your DD decides to become Christian? Because that is a likely scenario that might happen.

I don't care about parents doing this. I think faith schools should be private only like in France for example. I couldn't do it myself though. I wouldm just be too embarrassed to fake it, especially as it is probably obvious people are there for school places. They can probably spot people who are attending church for a school place a mile off and I bet it would be hard to just attend church only and not get roped into things like prayer meetings, Alpha courses and similar.

Speed, it completely depends on the church. My church doesn't have that Alpha kind of thing at all (ever), but we're not evangelical. We're far more likely to go out for a drink and a gossip.

WooWooOwl, if you're still about

I completely disagree that the most morally acceptable position would be to 'sacrifice' your own child's education. I don't think doing your best for your own child equals thinking it's ok for other children to not receive a good education

In a scenario where there are limited places at a good school, and (assuming for the sake of argument) the alternatives will be detrimental to your child, then by definition if you manage to get a place for your child at the good school, another child will instead go to the shit one. Also, the education system in general works largely on competition (good uni places leading to good jobs can be got by only a fraction; only a certain percentage of A-level takers can be given As). I think we're kidding ourselves if we pretend that by trying to get your own child ahead, you're not trying (on some level) to outdo others.

Going to church does not mean that you are lying about being a Christian.
The C of E itself doesn't give 2 hoots about non-Christians attending their services. Some cathedrals positively advertise for children of no faith or of other faiths to apply to become cathedral choristers, who then sing at several services a week!

In a town about 20 minutes by train from here, there are two catholic schools that I know of. One is very sought after by middle class parents (if their children don't get into grammar, the parents don't mind their child not having a catholic education if the child gets into grammar ;-) )
The other one is avoided by middle class parents at all cost. It seems that not all faith schools are considered desirable. We're quite fortunate that where we are there are good primary and secondary schools that aren't faith schools so we don't have the dilemma.

As long as you don't then moan about prayers and mass and re lessons and that kind of thing

There was a very long thread not so long ago in which the OP had chosen to send her child to a faith school (private I think) and then wanted them to not only be kept out of all faith-based activities, but not to be within earshot of signing in assembly and also to have a teacher available to give their child lessons during the faith-based activities.

I think parents need to fit into the school, rather than assume they will be able to bend the school to their preferences.

So how does that work when you're an atheist and your catchment school is C of E? Not all faith schools are popular and lots of people are only offered faith schools. Are they just supposed to sing along?

But my post and the OP are both about an atheist family actively seeking to send their child to a faith school, despite having alternatives available to them.

The system is what is ethically wrong, IMO. Children should not be kept out of local, or good, schools because their parents don't go to church. And religions should not have (part) control of state funded schools. And children of different religions should not be kept apart.
But that's where we are. I don't think it's wrong to play the system in those circumstances.
In fact, the more non Christians attend Christian run schools the better for all concerned - for those of us who are not in favour of religious segregation.